Kill Team 2018 in July

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Re: Kill Team 2018 in July

Postby me_in_japan on Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:11 pm

as a follow up to ToD's comments (and a big thank you to him for driving all the way down to hicksy ol' Mie), I agree entirely with his opinion. Overall the game is quick and fun, and certainly feels like a smoothed out version of 40k. The semi-alternate activation is really the only sticky wicket, I'd say, although given the problems with true alternate activation it's hard to offer an alternative. fwiw, the problem was:

he had nids. He wants to be in CC (BUT also wants to be able to leave when appropriate, and go get some objectives)
I had eldar. I really didnt want to be in CC.

It being a small table, after turn 1, he was basically close enough to charge my chaps. Once in combat, when we roll for initiative, it becomes:

I win initiative. I must move first. If I do walk my guys out of combat, even though I can use a stratagem to shoot in the shooting phase, it doesn't matter, as his nids can charge me again in their movement phase, which happens before anyone shoots.

OR

He wins initiative. He must move first. He wants to get someone onto an objective, but if he leaves combat, he's getting shuriken'd in the chops.

So the roll for initiative came across as very swingy.

One thing which neither of us thought of, btw, is that perhaps I could've run out of combat and actually RUN (ie, advanced), which would've made it far more difficult for ToD to get back into combat with me? Likewise, maybe he couldve done the same and lurked behind cover? Just a thought.
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Re: Kill Team 2018 in July

Postby The Other Dave on Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:56 pm

Except that you can't fall back out of combat and also advance - it's just a tricky situation, really.

It'll take some games to really see how it washes out, I think. Different matchups and scenarios will probably play quite differently, and the fact that MiJ had to go first on (IIRC) all six turns sort of threw the issue into relief. I'd want to play a bunch of games RAW before thinking of house rules, but I can already think of a few that could help - trading off who has initiative every turn rather than rolling, just allowing the initiative winner to choose to move first or second, or even alternating activation for the movement phase (which would strongly favor larger kill teams, but still might be better). The first two don't really "fix" the issue, but would at least "even it out". Again, if it's even a huge issue across many games, matchups and scenarios.

I think the way scenarios often work will mitigate the issue as well. As I think about that scenario (Feint for those following along at home), as the attacker I could have earned a maximum of 5 VP (all from killing enemy models - one for breaking his kill team and one more for each specialist I killed), which he could then beat by capturing only three objectives out of six, getting 6 VP - so in a very real sense my focus on being in CC with him, coupled with my small model count kill team, lost me the game, when I should have been more-aggressively grabbing and destroying objectives, which would have exposed me to a lot more fire.
Miniatures painted in 2018:
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Re: Kill Team 2018 in July

Postby Primarch on Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:27 am

The Other Dave wrote:I think the way scenarios often work will mitigate the issue as well. As I think about that scenario (Feint for those following along at home), as the attacker I could have earned a maximum of 5 VP (all from killing enemy models - one for breaking his kill team and one more for each specialist I killed), which he could then beat by capturing only three objectives out of six, getting 6 VP - so in a very real sense my focus on being in CC with him, coupled with my small model count kill team, lost me the game, when I should have been more-aggressively grabbing and destroying objectives, which would have exposed me to a lot more fire.


On the other hand, it must be harder to secure objectives if your biomass is being pulled out through your eye sockets, no?
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Re: Kill Team 2018 in July

Postby The Other Dave on Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:31 am

Primarch wrote:
The Other Dave wrote:I think the way scenarios often work will mitigate the issue as well. As I think about that scenario (Feint for those following along at home), as the attacker I could have earned a maximum of 5 VP (all from killing enemy models - one for breaking his kill team and one more for each specialist I killed), which he could then beat by capturing only three objectives out of six, getting 6 VP - so in a very real sense my focus on being in CC with him, coupled with my small model count kill team, lost me the game, when I should have been more-aggressively grabbing and destroying objectives, which would have exposed me to a lot more fire.


On the other hand, it must be harder to secure objectives if your biomass is being pulled out through your eye sockets, no?

That is certainly true! :lol: It's hard to say as both of our dice were so gloriously whiff-tastic, but I think I might have struggled to kill 7 of his guys (the number I'd have needed to kill to guarantee he couldn't hold 3 objectives) in 5 turns even if we'd rolled well - between hit modifiers and injury rolls, things seem a lot more survivable than in 40K.
Miniatures painted in 2018:
28mm: 91 infantry, 6 vehicles, 2 buildings, assorted other terrain-y bits
Currently focusing on: 40K, Shadespire, Age of Sigmar?, Malifaux
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Re: Kill Team 2018 in July

Postby The Other Dave on Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:35 am

The Rogue Trader announcement trailer is a thing of beauty:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orWCjfUcBTI

The writeup on the community site says it's basically a second Kill Team starter box, with the rogue trader and daemonic warbands and a couple of "interior" kill zones (one shipboard and one in an imperial shrine) with accompanying rules and such. Also 40K stats for them, if that's your bag. They've also announced the next two kill team boxes (Deathwatch and Asuryani) and a third kill zone box (death world forest) so that's OK.

It looks, in fact, like GW has sold completely out of kill team starter boxes, the demand was so high.
Miniatures painted in 2018:
28mm: 91 infantry, 6 vehicles, 2 buildings, assorted other terrain-y bits
Currently focusing on: 40K, Shadespire, Age of Sigmar?, Malifaux
My twitter is pretty hobby-heavy: vivanagoya
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Re: Kill Team 2018 in July

Postby me_in_japan on Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:19 pm

I'm really hoping this lets me use my Sedition Wars stuff. The boards at least should get some use out of them, but I reckon there's good scope for proxying the nurgle stuff, too. That said, depending on cost it's not outwith the bounds of possibility that I pick this up. If it has a core rule book in it that'd be a big selling point, as I reckon KT is a fun game, so an actual paper rulebook would be handy. We shall see :)
2018 totals
minis
acquired (bought or arrived via KS) : 0 sold : 4 painted : 15 money spent: 0GBP money in: 175GBP
Magic cards
bought: lots money spent: 343GBP
brushes, books, paint, etc
money spent: 0GBP
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Re: Kill Team 2018 in July

Postby Primarch on Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:04 pm

me_in_japan wrote:I'm really hoping this lets me use my Sedition Wars stuff. The boards at least should get some use out of them, but I reckon there's good scope for proxying the nurgle stuff, too.

Y'know what would let you use your Sedition Wars stuff?
Bringing it to a gaming day and saying "Who wants to try Sedition Wars?" I reckon that could be a good chance. :lol:

The Rogue Trader stuff does look cool though.

Incidentally, I was looking at Sedition Wars minis the other day. Bit of a coincidence. They do look like nice minis.
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Re: Kill Team 2018 in July

Postby job on Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:15 pm

Wow, Rogue Trader miniatures. Surely pigs are now flying, there's a blue moon out and pies dot the skies. Then again I suppose it is all now very realistic with plastic sisters still to be released this year, but it is all a bit surreal when those childhood and youthful daydreams are (kind of) coming true. (Albeit with a significant price tag.)
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Re: Kill Team 2018 in July

Postby The Other Dave on Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:07 pm

Had a fun three games of this today, with more than enough time to spare for a fourth if I'd felt like it - I mentioned it to Konrad, but I think a 4-game mini-campaign should be entirely doable on a single Sunday sometime. Rules-wise, it might have been the match-ups, or the scenarios, or taking a more-balanced kill team myself, or just what people were doing on the table, but while initiative still felt important, it didn't feel nearly as "make or break" as in my game against MiJ the other week. I did learn that marines (and especially primaris marines with their 2 wounds) are hard as nails, and the boost to S4 that Orks seem to have gotten makes them pretty dang scary as well, and that I should probably splurge for some toxin sacs on my nids. I also think I really like how command points are generated, and would be pretty happy if 40K, like AoS, adopted a similar system of "generating a few points every turn".

I have a feeling that the "it's still 40K, though*" wall may have been too high for Prim, but I'm pretty much sold on the game, to nobody's surprise probably.

*And I kid, but I do want to stress that I feel it's a valid point - 40K certainly does have its idiosyncrasies, which nobody is obliged to deal with if they don't want to. :)
Miniatures painted in 2018:
28mm: 91 infantry, 6 vehicles, 2 buildings, assorted other terrain-y bits
Currently focusing on: 40K, Shadespire, Age of Sigmar?, Malifaux
My twitter is pretty hobby-heavy: vivanagoya
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Re: Kill Team 2018 in July

Postby Primarch on Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:13 pm

So yesterday I managed to get in two games of Kill Team, one against GW's very own ToD and the other against OZMS2Tallgeese. I will caveat my review by saying that I lost both games (the first due to the nature of the mission and the force opposite me, the second because I didn't play the mission and instead tried to make a fight of things). However, both match ups were fun despite the loss, due to good opponents and a good vibe at the table. I think it is important to draw a distinction between having a fun time playing games with good people and having fun derived from the game being played. For example, having played several games against ToD over the years, I can honestly say that they have all been good, regardless of the rules or minis in use.

So, on with my review of Kill Team.

First off, the positive points:
The rules are pretty simple. I managed two games in about an hour each. Once you've got the hang of things (and there isn't a lot to it really), you should be able to sail through a few games easily.
I liked the alternating activations. That's something I've been pretty clear on in my past criticisms of most of GW's offerings, so it should come as no real surprise.
I got the chance to put some of my minis on the table, move them around and roll some dice with friends.
In terms of background and setting, it obviously draws upon the 40K universe, which is awesome as far as settings go.

And now for the negatives.
As ToD points out above, some of 40K's idiosyncrasies are front and centre in KT, largely because it pretty much is 40K in many respects. My biggest gripe in game was the LoS rules regarding charges compared to the LoS rules for overwatch. (In short, NO LoS is needed to declare a charge, but it IS needed to declare overwatch. The intervening open space the charger runs through is ignored).
As I said above, I like the alternating activations, but I think that the system for movement is quite buggy in that it isn't alternating at all. Several times in both my games, it became clear that having the initiative for movement dictated how the turn was going to play. Enemy repositions a heavy weapon? Step out of the way. One of your guys is in combat? Walk away. You have Initiative? You're not doing those things. I think I would have preferred a more Malifaux-ish system of activating one model and doing everything (move, shoot, fight) rather than doing every models' movement, then all the shooting etc. GW wanted to keep KT recognizably 40K I guess.
Overall though, my main impression as I walked away from the table was the simplicity of the system. Yes, it plays fast, yes, it's easy. But there is no meat on the bones of the game. There are some decisions to be made during the game, but it lacks the option to really do anything beyond Move-Shoot-Fight. Comparing it to my Skirmish game of choice, Malifaux, where you have a huge range of options depending on your faction, crew and upgrades, KT seems quite plain. I find it amusing that my biggest complaint about 40K is 'too many special rules,' and my biggest complaint about KT is 'not enough special rules'. For me, the level of detail/options/special rules should be inversely proportional to the amount of minis on the table. A point where GW and I disagree it would seem.
Finally, there was nothing I really felt made the game stand out from anything else on the market. No unique point that grabbed my attention and screamed "Play Me!"

So, in TL,DR fashion to sum up:
Kill Team is not a terrible game, it didn't give me cancer. (Not that I know of anyway, only time will tell). If your aim is to play as many games of something as you possibly can in a limited period of time, KT is definitely a contender. If you prefer a deep game with lots of options, well rounded, yet distinct forces and don't feel like you need to rush a game in in under an hour, there are better options out there.
Prims Painty Points > +924.5
Finished Minis in 2014: 510.....Finished Minis in 2015: 300
Finished Minis in 2016 (as of Nov 30): 369 + 2 Tables of Terrain
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