Shadespire

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The Other Dave
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Re: Shadespire

Post by The Other Dave » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:28 am

Incidentally, I picked up Dreadfane while I was in the States last month - even with the boards being unusable in standard Underworlds, 50 bucks for two cool-lookin' warbands was hard to pass up. There's no universal cards in the set (which is apparently being released worldwide later this year, with just the warbands), so there's no point getting it unless you want some banshees and/or more Stormcast, but both the Mournflight and the Condemnors look real good on paper - the Stormcast in particular seem like a straight-up upgrade to Steelheart's crew, using a couple years' game design experience to make them a bit more competitive. Plus all of them have Knockback, which just strikes me as hilarious.

Oh! Also, applications for the next closed beta of Underworlds Online open up at 7am Monday if anyone's interested. You need to sign up to their discord: https://discordapp.com/channels/5229870 ... 0095481867
Feel free to call me Dave!
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Jye Nicolson
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Re: Shadespire

Post by Jye Nicolson » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:44 am

I'm really excited to play Ironsoul's Condemnors, I've always loved Ironsoul's model (she's currently two of my Space Wolves thanks to Morsla's conversion wizardry), and they look like a tough warband with a more rounded playstyle than my beloved big Troll.

I really enjoy Mollog but he has a tendency to crush lots of teams in potentially unfun ways and then lose to the first Stormcast band that comes along.

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Re: Shadespire

Post by The Other Dave » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:22 am

One thing we noticed at the last Osaka tourney is that Mollog, played “correctly,” is a real good way to win tournaments and a real bad way to make friends, especially against players who haven’t prepared for him. :lol:
Feel free to call me Dave!
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Re: Shadespire

Post by Jye Nicolson » Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:55 am

Big M is an easy beat if you can dish out about 8 damage (to be safe) in two activations and don't let him kill anyone in in the intervening (inspired) activation.

There's a pretty slender set of teams who can comfortably do that, Cursebreakers first amongst them.

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Re: Shadespire

Post by The Other Dave » Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:31 am

Hmm, I'm getting pretty hype for the wolf riders. It looks like, while there's a couple interesting twists, they'll be a pretty straightforward aggro warband, which it seems we haven't really seen in a while - since Magore's maybe? Plus the models are dope.
Image
Possibly some of the best wolves GW have ever done, although to be fair that's a pretty low bar.
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Miniatures painted in 2020:
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Adeptus Titanicus: 1 Titan

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Re: Shadespire

Post by me_in_japan » Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:16 pm

So, I've been giving competitive Underworlds a bit of thought, and while I havent actually built a deck yet, I have taken a look at some of those sites that list all the tourney winning decks and suchlike. I...have some questions. Keep in mind that I'm coming at this with a very poor understanding of the Underworlds meta, and a fairly decent understanding of the MtG meta, and thus comparisons will be made. Answers on a postcard, please...

1. When I look at the decks, they seem very varied. With MtG, there are a great many cards that do roughly the same thing (eg if I search for "Destroy all creatures" I'll get a dozen or more cards (just checked - there's 125... :shock: ), but with underworlds, how does one actually identify a "good" card for a given purpose? For that matter, is there anywhere I can search the rules contents of each card? (similar to this, f'r example)

2. From what I can tell, there are 3 principle archetypes: aggro (scores points by killin' stuff), control/denial (scores points by not dying and objective squatting, bolstered by removing the opponent's ability to score, eg by destroying objectives) and flex (a bit of both.) Is there a clear set or subset of cards that appear in the majority of decks of each type? Are there cards that are straight up so good that you just use em in all decks? As a follow-up to this, are there warbands that are "better" at a given playstyle? E.g. warbands X, Y and Z are all "control" warbands, but Y is by far the strongest?

3. Are the "good" cards deliberately spread over as many boxes as possible? From what I can see, most winning decks have cards from anywhere between 8-12 separate boxes. This is vexing, and causes me to narrow my eyes suspiciously in GWs direction.

4. I'm pretty short on time, and dont really want to sit through hours and hours of random podcasts/articles about Underworlds in the hope of finding one that clarifies stuff for me. Does anybody have any recommendations for good places to read deck techs/strategy articles. Something that goes into the meta, discusses which cards are best at a given purpose, and how to approach deck building and that kind of stuff would be very helpful.

5. Why is Rebound such a problem? Seriously, it's like the bloody sky is falling :roll: Makes me wonder how some players would react to being counterspelled...
Image

fwiw, there are 333 cards that counter spells in Magic. 333. Count em. And you don't even have a chance of it not working. It's just a straight up "nope, your move doesnt work. Next..."

I mean, I do get that Rebound is a pretty swingy card, but since it's there, surely you can work around it? No? Am I missing something?

Fwiw, I find I approach "competitive" games (ie those with tight rulesets) differently from "creative" games, (ie those that lean towards the sandbox-y, just-have-fun-and-roll-dice style). With 40k, for example, I have my own craftworld colours, name, background and all that jazz. I play for fun and fluff, and often lose. Which is fine. With mtg (and, when appropriate*, shadespire) I want to build a good deck (and play the game itself as best I can). It seems pointless (and a tad arrogant) to try to build the best deck myself, when other, far more skilled and experienced, players have done it already. So, I try to seek out information laid down by wiser minds than I in an effort to improve myself and my game. Just pointing this out before people start levelling net-decking accusations at me :lol:

Essentially, I kinda need an article or podcast (or friendly local Nagoyahammerite :D ) that basically says "the best control cards are A, B, C, the best aggro cards are D, E, F and the best Flex cards are G, H, J. Oh, and the best warbands for each purpose are X, Y and Z respectively". Or something of that nature. It's not that I want to copy them exactly, but without some kind of picture of what makes a good deck of each kind, I'm swinging in the dark.

I appreciate this is a big ask, and many thanks in advance to anybody who has any info on the subject. Much obliged, guv'nors *tugs hat respectfully*

*ie when playing against someone who is also doing their best to win.
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Re: Shadespire

Post by Jye Nicolson » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:56 pm

Goonhammer is good, they don't have a lot of Underworlds but the deck building 101/201 should be a good start:

https://www.goonhammer.com/category/gam ... derworlds/

Canyourollacrit is the most comprehensive blog I know of, though I mostly just go back there for reviews of new teams:

https://canyourollacrit.com/

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Re: Shadespire

Post by Jye Nicolson » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:20 pm

Card analysis I think is pretty easy. I'm not much of a CCG player but I'm going to guess you already have the skills (and more) that you need here so a lot of this will probably sound obvious to you.

Pick your objectives first:

- six Surge objectives. This is the limit you can take and they're limited for a reason, so take 6. Surges are scored right after the action that triggered their condition, not at the end of the turn, and then you draw another objective card. They let you start upgrading and going nuts in turn 1 AND help you see your whole objective deck.
- six end of turn objectives. You have to take these, if you take more than six you'll see your surges less often so here we are.
- objectives should be under your control. Underworlds is lousy with really interesting, interactive cards that respond to the game and you don't want a bar of them. Calculated Risk is a great card - if you walk through a lethal hex and don't die, you get a point. Especially in Beastgrave there's lethal hexes everywhere, every fighter has at least two health, it's almost impossible for your opponent to stop you walking *someone* through one. Annihilation or whatever it's called that gives you a million points in phase 3 if you tabled the opponent is terrible IMO, since your opponent has a ton of say in it, and when it works you're just winning harder. This is to say nothing of the "get points if you went first three times in a row" or whatever cards that only the dice control.

Yesterday some Plamojuku folks said something about me scoring a lot - not even necessarily winning, but that I'm guaranteed to need a bunch of glory tokens. That's just taking those simple principles to deck construction. I think a lot of people have good memories of some of the big end of turn bombs going off and hold on to them in their deck but I expect Magic players understand not to have that kind of sentimentality if the card is not doing work reliably.

After that it's pretty easy to see what will support your objectives. To my mind the generally good stuff is things that break the action economy (which is why My Turn and Ready for Action are best left cycled out with Shadespire, and their less good Beastgrave replacements are still great). Pushes are really really good.

Pure opinion and a bit behind because I don't understand the Beastgrave teams well but for me:

Aggro:

1. Magore
2. Mollog (he's actually 1 for me but it's a brittle play, you crush a lot of decks and then Stormcast kill you)
3. Sylvaneth tree people, maybe Rippas

Control:

1. Grymwatch
2. Steampunk Dwarves
3. Actually not sure, whatever it is it's far behind the first two IMO

Hybrid:

1. Cursebreakers
Maybe Also 1. Ironsoul's Condemnors (I will play them aggro though, where they may also be 1)

One of the things to watch out for in a faction is their cards that have the same effect as another card. Since you can't double up with the same named card, this gives the faction a huge boost in reliability for that action. For example there's a new objective (Temporary Victory) that scores two points straight after you capture three objectives - this is a little softer than Supremacy that's three points for that at end of turn, but it's a surge so it's amazing. Grymwatch already had that card under a different name - so they can do it twice, possibly even in the same activation, and are twice as likely to be able to do it at all at any given time.

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Re: Shadespire

Post by Jye Nicolson » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:39 pm

Oh and Rebound is a pain in the ass because it breaks the action economy AND uses a bunch of your opponent's resources against them. When it works it will probably kill the attacker because you're really aiming to do 4 damage one shots on people and will have done work to get there - upgrades, gambits to buff this attack, getting Mollog hurt so he inspires. Most comparable effects are counterattacks (so you have to live and then do the work of attacking yourself) or just mitigate the damage; Rebound is a MUCH bigger swing in practice and tough to mitigate. Even if you make your units tanky enough that they can't kill themselves in one swing, if you're doing proper aggro you'll still do enough damage to yourself that anyone should be able to clean you up on the next activation.

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Re: Shadespire

Post by The Other Dave » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:27 am

I think part of why people are upset about Rebound (and I really think it's very overblown) is that it's sort of a relic, design-wise, of some design mis-steps they made in season 1 and largely learned from. That and the other card everybody had in their deck, Ready for Action (a gambit that let you take a free action with a model after giving it an upgrade) just sort of, as Jye says, warp the action economy in really not very interesting ways. I don't think it being in the card pool is bad for the game or anything, and it will almost certainly go on the restricted list (I'd laugh if they immediately banned it), but they've kind of moved past it in design terms.

In general, though, Jye has good advice about deck building. I might add:

As for objectives, end-of-turn objectives that give only 1 glory are generally considered to be not great (and for this reason you never see the Hold Objective X cards in serious decks), since most Surge objectives only give 1. Most people suggest trying to get at least 16-18 glory across all your 12 objective cards. And definitely always having all 6 surge objectives is huge as it makes it that much easier to cycle through your whole deck, and score all those points, during the game. In general, though, the less you have to depend on your opponent doing something, the better.

It's also good to keep an eye out for cards that let you score extra objective for kills if you're even a little bit aggro. Tome of Offerings, Trophy Belt, and the new Amberbone weapons are all solid includes for this reason.

But really, the "best deck" will always depend on your warband, and the best aggro cards for one might not be the best for another. (Hmm! Actually, I think I'll walk through how I put my Banshee deck together - I'm by no means amazing at the game, but seeing my thought processes might be interesting. Next post incoming.)

Oh! Podcasts and such! For analysis and study, Path to Glory is a pretty good podcast, if a little dull at times, and on YouTube the Battlecast and Agents of Sigmar are both interesting channels with good hosts who have lots of battle reports and fairly regular breakdowns of new cards and why they're good or weak, and both sometimes go over examples of deckbuilding with reasoning for choices and so on.
Last edited by The Other Dave on Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Feel free to call me Dave!
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Miniatures painted in 2020:
AoS-iverse: 87 infantry
40K-iverse: 29 infantry, 1 monster, a whole mess of terrain
Adeptus Titanicus: 1 Titan

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