A collaborative historical side-project: El Alamein in 6mm

A Sub-forum for discussion, painting, modelling and gaming related to the Battle of El Alamein Collaborative Project
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The Other Dave
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A collaborative historical side-project: El Alamein in 6mm

Post by The Other Dave » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:55 am

Hi everyone! As I mentioned in the main collaborative historical project thread, Mike and I have informally decided to start up a project to collect and play (part of) the battle of El Alamein at 6mm scale. We'd welcome anyone else's involvement! To keep people in the loop and/or drum up interest, we're starting a thread here to discuss ideas and share our progress.

The history:

"It may also be said, 'Before Alamein we never had a victory. After Alamein we never had a defeat.'" -Winston Churchill

Mike, being more of a historical grog than I am, may well hop in with more detail, but very broadly this can be said: the series of battles at El Alamein, a relatively unimportant railroad stop at a chokepoint between the Ruweisat Ridge and the sea 66 miles from Alexandria, between July and November of 1942, stalled and then turned the tide of the entire African war against Erwin Rommel's forces, ending the Axis threat to Egypt and points east and denying them access to the Suez Canal and the oilfields of the Middle East. Sort of a big deal!

Why 6mm? As we discussed in the other thread, 6mm is nice because it allows you to collect forces at the company level cheaply, and (at least as importantly) lets you play with company-scale forces on a 6 x 4 table while still allowing for maneuver and tactics. Even from the relatively-expensive GHQ, a force consisting of a supported infantry company and a tank company will set you back something in the neighborhood of 100 USD, and if you go with CinC, which has a less absurdly-complete catalog and slightly less absurdly-detailed models, it could be done for even cheaper. I also happen to have a desert-themed board and terrain in 6mm which I collected for Epic, so there's another expense we can save.

What rules system? The nice thing about historicals, of course, is that if you collect yourself a historically-accurate force, you'll be able to use it with pretty much any game - the only issues are usually basing*, and how a given game represents commanders and such. As such, I have a couple systems in mind. The first is Blitzkrieg Commander, which is based on the venerable Warmaster system, and the second is Too Fat Lardies' I Ain't Been Shot, Mum, which has a card-based activation system and lots and lots of fog of war - which is, if you know me, something very much in its favor in my eyes. :D Both are made to support company-level games, and both are well-reviewed. We can discuss the relative merits of these and other systems as the thread goes on - these are just what I'm seeing as the main candidates at this time.

What forces? Mike has decided he wants to collect Kiwis, and I (taking a look at deployment maps and such) am at the moment thinking of an Italian bersaglieri force. You may laugh, and Mike already has, but one of the nice things about the rules systems I'm suggesting is that they take a more "realistic" and less "cinematic" approach to rules, and in particular national special rules, than something like Bolt Action, which by all accounts hamstrings the Italians to near-unplayability in service to ideas of their low morale and low troop quality that have more to do with movies and TV shows in the years after the war than reality.

And that's about as far as our discussion has gotten! If anyone else is interested in joining us, by all means, feel free. :)

*Quick note about basing: At the moment I'm thinking of basing up rifle squads of 8-10 men on 60mm x 30mm bases, and everything else (weapons teams, tanks, leaders and the like) on 30mm bases. After putting my Napoleonics together, I really like the "feel" of this base size, both in terms of tabletop footprint and semi-realistic distributions of men on the base.
Feel free to call me Dave!
-----
Miniatures painted in 2023: 252
Miniatures painted in 2024:
Epic scale: 9 vehicles, 56 stands of infantry, a whole buncha terrain
32mm-ish: 8 infantry

Simon W
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Re: A collaborative historical side-project: El Alamein in 6

Post by Simon W » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:12 pm

Sounds good. I'm in. GHQ are definitely the class act in this scale and I have bought stuff from them before. Their mail order operation and customer service are first rate. One thing though - their vehicles are fantastic, but their infantry seem very over scale. I have some NATO infantry for my Dutch modern force and they look way too big. In fact, they go better with my 1/200 Skytrex armour. Heroics and Ros infantry are less detailed, but more in scale with the tanks. Cheaper, too. Try Googling "GHQ infantry over scale?" to join in the fun... In fact, seeing as Panzer Armee Afrika's infantry spent most of the El Alamein fighting dug-in, you (We?) might be better off scratchbuilding the strongpoints/wire on bases and spending the hard-earned Yen on AT guns and artillery. Minefields can also be scratch-built, although I'm not sure my eyesight is good enough to paint 'Achtung Minen!' signs in 1/285 scale. In many respects El Alamein was more like a WW1 battle than the free-wheeling mayhem of the earlier Crusader or Gazala battles. The emphasis was on artillery preparation and set-piece infantry attacks during Monty's 'crumbling' phase with the armour unable to break out through the minefield gaps until quite late in the fighting.

Fielding a mixed German/Italian force would give more variety and would be more in keeping with the way that Panzer Armee Africa operated. Pitt (2001) says that British infantry on the 'Snipe' feature were attacked by a mixed force of panzers, Italian M13/40 tanks and Semovente assault guns. German and Italian units were mixed down to battalion level as the Germans had to resort to 'corsetting' the Italians with German units at intervals along the front.

Come to think of it, the action on 'Snipe' would rock in this scale - British infantry battalion with 6 pounder AT guns under attack from a mixed German/Italian armored force with British armour lurking on a ridge at the edge of the table. 'Supercharge' would also be amazing in this scale - the Charge of the Light Brigade, only with tanks...

The effectiveness of the Italians in WW2 is still hotly debated - by all accounts their artillery were brave and technically competent, but they suffered from serious deficiencies in equipment (especially tanks) and leadership. Also, Mussolini's psychological hold over the Italian people was nowhere near as complete as Hitler's was over the Germans. Furthermore, the bulk of the Italian formations in the western desert were infantry divisions with little motorized transport. Once the 8th Army's tanks got behind them and their water supplies were cut off they had little choice but to surrender. Granted they may have thrown in the towel sooner than others, but still... That said, their Ariete armored division threw themselves at the 8th Army with considerable bravery in a doomed attempt to prevent the British armour from breaking out into the open desert. I imagine their Folgore paratroopers were a bit of a handful too. Word has it that FOW exaggerated the Italian's effectiveness in their rules to sell more more minis, but surely they wouldn't stoop so low. Would they?

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I'm in. I've had McGuirk's (1987) 'Rommel's Army in Africa' for years so I would be happy to start a German/Italian force. That said, I really fancy some Grants and Crusaders as well...

Simon W
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Re: A collaborative historical side-project: El Alamein in 6

Post by Simon W » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:28 pm

One more thing... Get yourselves psyched-up by listening to Monty's speech to the 8th Army on YouTube. Damn good. They don't make Englishmen like that anymore...

"It can be done, and it will be done. Beyond any possibility of doubt."

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The Other Dave
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Re: A collaborative historical side-project: El Alamein in 6

Post by The Other Dave » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:23 am

Great! Welcome aboard. :)

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of potential to grog out on a project like this - something that is possible with this sort of thing is representing a mixed-nation force by using a couple different players on a side as well. And the (relative) lot price of 6mm means collecting two sides is an option as well! (It would allow for more flexible matchups if only three or four people get into it as well.)
Feel free to call me Dave!
-----
Miniatures painted in 2023: 252
Miniatures painted in 2024:
Epic scale: 9 vehicles, 56 stands of infantry, a whole buncha terrain
32mm-ish: 8 infantry

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Mike the Pike
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Re: A collaborative historical side-project: El Alamein in 6

Post by Mike the Pike » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:48 pm

I have returned, enthusiasm for this wee project undiminished.
I have a hankering for Some teeny tiny Maoris, Stuarts, Grants and Shermans.
What say we try Blitzkreig Commander 3 when it comes out?

As for army lists the relevant Flames of War source books are excellent for accurate army lists.
Morituri nolumus mori!

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The Other Dave
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Re: A collaborative historical side-project: El Alamein in 6

Post by The Other Dave » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:58 am

Mike the Pike wrote:I have returned, enthusiasm for this wee project undiminished.
I have a hankering for Some teeny tiny Maoris, Stuarts, Grants and Shermans.
What say we try Blitzkreig Commander 3 when it comes out?

As for army lists the relevant Flames of War source books are excellent for accurate army lists.
BKC works! When's 3 due out? (I have 2, so could get you guys access to the rules...)
Feel free to call me Dave!
-----
Miniatures painted in 2023: 252
Miniatures painted in 2024:
Epic scale: 9 vehicles, 56 stands of infantry, a whole buncha terrain
32mm-ish: 8 infantry

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Mike the Pike
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Re: A collaborative historical side-project: El Alamein in 6

Post by Mike the Pike » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:40 am

The end of the month.
Morituri nolumus mori!

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job
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Re: A collaborative historical side-project: El Alamein in 6

Post by job » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:58 pm

When are you guys thinking of launching this project?
Models Painted, 2020
70 28mm miniatureS

Simon W
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Re: A collaborative historical side-project: El Alamein in 6

Post by Simon W » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:14 pm

Blitzkrieg commander sounds fine to me. I haven't got access to the Flames of War source book so I would appreciate a heads up on what's in the army lists. If you are especially interested in the Maori units in the NZ division I have a copy of "The Story of the Maori Battalion" by Wira Gardiner.

I've already jumped the gun a bit by ordering 3 packs of PzIIIs and PzIVs from GHQ (and some 88s). That said, I'm equally interested in getting some 8th Army stuff...

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The Other Dave
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Re: A collaborative historical side-project: El Alamein in 6

Post by The Other Dave » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:10 pm

@job - Judging from Mike and my Napoleonics project, I'd say... anywhere between a year or two? :D Seriously, no solid plans yet, although I imagine I too will start making purchases sooner rather than later.

@Simon - Most of the FoW lists are to be found online, which is nice! Not totally up to date for FoW, but you get the more-or-less historical force org at least.

Should we go with 1 base = 1 unit and use a "company-level" organization like FoW gives? BKC3 seems to "officially" go for 1 base = 1 platoon, but BK2 at least was a bit fungible on the matter.
Feel free to call me Dave!
-----
Miniatures painted in 2023: 252
Miniatures painted in 2024:
Epic scale: 9 vehicles, 56 stands of infantry, a whole buncha terrain
32mm-ish: 8 infantry

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