Chapter House give GW the finger

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Spevna
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Re: Chapter House give GW the finger

Post by Spevna » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:23 am

Konrad wrote:I don't get Chapterhouse. If there stuff was a cheap knock off, sure. But it's mostly just a cheap-looking knock off.
I read a guy on another forum comparing CH to custom auto-part manufacturers. I guess they will make fenders, grilles, windows whatever for specific makes and models of cars and it's not a big copyright problem. If it's not a big deal to make a fender compatible with 64 Mustang, why not make a head compatible with a certain type of toy soldier?

That is pretty much my take on it. Though when they made full miniatures based on GW designs that GW had yet to sculpt, they might have taken it too far.
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Re: Chapter House give GW the finger

Post by Admiral-Badruck » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:07 am

http://corvetteexperience.com/search.php?c=1
Exhibit a

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/shelby/196 ... ar856.html
Exhibit b

These cars look a lot a like. More than one might say they should. Both cars. Both cool... And all fine under the law.
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Re: Chapter House give GW the finger

Post by Spevna » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:29 am

I like where your sneaky green head is at Admiral.
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Re: Chapter House give GW the finger

Post by me_in_japan » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:56 am

While I can see the admirals point on this one, I still think idea thievery is bad form. While looking the same isn't a big deal for cars, you can bet BMW or Toyota or whoever would come down like a ton of bricks on somebody who infringed on a technical patent. Yknow - some funky new ABS system or something. With minis, how it looks is 100% of the product, so if you copy that that then the original company is left with nothing. This serves as a huiuuge disincentive to design new stuff. It can only be bad for the miniature wargaming community if Chapterhouse win this case.
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Re: Chapter House give GW the finger

Post by Spevna » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:05 am

me_in_japan wrote: This serves as a huiuuge disincentive to design new stuff. It can only be bad for the miniature wargaming community if Chapterhouse win this case.

Yes and no. An interesting point raised by those foul mouthed frothers was that if ChapterHouse win, every small company will know exactly where the line is and what they can and can't get away with. We could see a flood of GW compatible bits made by the small Indy companies that are better than the often mediocre stuff that CH releases. It could bite CH in the arse if the floodgates are opened as lots of guys make better stuff.

And as long as they are making bits to add to existing GW minis it could actually help GW sales.
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Re: Chapter House give GW the finger

Post by Admiral-Badruck » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:33 am

Exhibit
A
http://forums.tauonline.org/space-marin ... tures.html

Exhibit

B
http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/

I won't even post the work that GW did on the Tyrvagon v the CHS upgrade pack there is no way to compare the two

The fact is GW had to do better than the first sculpts to produce better looking models that their competition. Now we get bette models. The model keep getting better they have to or folks will not buy them they will buy the best looking model on the maket.
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Re: Chapter House give GW the finger

Post by Spevna » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:50 am

Good point. I would buy the non GW on principle. But if I were a neutral buyer I would get the better looking ones.

This might also encourage GW to be more open with their WIP greens. If people knew that GW had the minis they wanted in the pipeline, they might be content to wait for them.
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Re: Chapter House give GW the finger

Post by Konrad » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:44 pm

I think GW from a business standpoint, pure dollars and cents, is not "threatened" by Chapterhouse and it's ilk. There is no comparison or replacement for GW plastics. I was hanging with Jus and got a close look at all the swooshy, swoopy, ghosty things the new Undead come with. Nobody else can make anything that can compare. I felt similiar, "wow" checking out the D.E stuff for the first time. If you want to play a GW game, you'll still need to plunk down a pile of cash to get boxes and boxes of plastic guys to get started. (Or take a pure Spevna stance and scour e-bay for old R.T toys) :mrgreen: What little bit you'd spend on extra custom heads and whatnot is comparative pocket change. GW sics the lawyers on these guys merely on the principle that copyrights have to be actively defended and the best defense is a good offense.
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Re: Chapter House give GW the finger

Post by kojibear » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:44 am

Spevna wrote:
Konrad wrote:I don't get Chapterhouse. If there stuff was a cheap knock off, sure. But it's mostly just a cheap-looking knock off.
I read a guy on another forum comparing CH to custom auto-part manufacturers. I guess they will make fenders, grilles, windows whatever for specific makes and models of cars and it's not a big copyright problem. If it's not a big deal to make a fender compatible with 64 Mustang, why not make a head compatible with a certain type of toy soldier?

That is pretty much my take on it. Though when they made full miniatures based on GW designs that GW had yet to sculpt, they might have taken it too far.
Agreed - both points.

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Re: Chapter House give GW the finger

Post by Miguelsan » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:52 am

But my friends the devil is in the details and in this it works against GW prefered approach of miniature selling that can be boiled down to "when it suits us".

From my understanding (again non legal) copyright laws protect the expresion of an idea in one medium, not of one idea in any medium to avoid stiffling of creativity (once I wrote about sparkling vampires, now all glowing vampires are mine). So if GW describes a tervigon but never bothers taking that idea into an sculpture, GW has the rights to that description but not to the sculpture someone might make after reading it. Using the name Tervigon for your figure is another can of worms because thats a trademark and the trademark law works different.

So the comfortable position of staggering releases to suit GW´s has been threatened because somebody was faster creating a egg laying bug (that it´s not a Tervigon) or a cyberwolf (that it´s not a Thunderwolf) kit. In the words of a copyright lawyer.
That is absolutely not the definition of copyright infringement. That might be your personal impression of what is equitable, but it is not copyright protection. There are very good reasons why copyright laws are designed the way that they have been in countries around the world.

§106 · Exclusive rights in copyrighted works

Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:

(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;
(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;
(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly;
(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and
(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.

(emphasis mine)

Those are the exclusive rights of a copyright holder. And note too the subject matter of copyright:

§102 (b) In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work. (emphasis mine)

Copyright protects original works and only the work. It is called copyright.

An author only has exclusive rights to what is original. Just like a patent claim may contain many elements that are all clearly in the prior art, a work of art likely incorporates many elements that are not original. Copyright gives an author the exclusive rights to reproduce the work, perform or display the work, distribute copies of the work, and to prepare derivative works which are still copied from the root work.

This is apparently what you are missing.

In order to get all the way to copyright infringement, which means that someone other than the owner of a copyright exercised the above-described exclusive rights (keeping in mind a long list of exceptions), you have to follow these steps:

Does the plaintiff own the copyright?

If yes, is the asserted work original?

If yes, what portion of the work is original?

Does the accused work copy that which is original in the asserted work?

The plaintiff in a copyright infringement lawsuit bears the burden of proof with regard to all of these questions. Additionally, the defendant has a wide array of potential affirmative defenses.

Whether or not Chapterhouse makes money because of Games Workshop's game is immaterial with regard to the above questions. Distributing copies of a work is an exclusive right of a copyright holder, but one must show that the works being distributed are copies of a protectible expression. Your opinion is that the Tru-scale products are copies, but the issue is not so open and shut as you believe. Can you show that the Tru scale products are direct recasts of a Games Workshop product, i.e. copies? If not, the issue of whether the works are copies of a protectible expression is not so clear cut at all. The law contemplates that one cannot circumvent infringement by making insubstantial alterations to a protectible expression. But what constitutes insubstantial? You will find that attempting to answer that question wades deeply into the murky realm of subjective interpretation about what "art" is. And the same arguments one would make to prove that an accused work is a copy of a protectible expression in the absence of direct evidence could and should be used to determine the scope of protection inherent in the asserted work itself.

Is it not equitable that the degree of "insubstantial" difference between an asserted work and an accused work apply equally to the asserted work in comparison to any and all preexisting works? If a lemon is a copy of an orange because the two are citrus fruits, then surely the orange is a copy of a preexisting grapefruit on the same basis. Thus the lemon is not a copy of the orange, but a copy of the grapefruit, for the orange is itself a copy of the grapefruit, and under this fanciful example, there are nothing but grapefruits, in spite of what your eyes, nose, and mouth tell you.

When you begin to reach towards arguing that two things that are not exactly the same are indeed exactly the same, it is important to sober your mind with context. Any determination that two works that are not exact copies are the same thing under the law threatens to capture any other work, even those that do not yet exist, with a similar degree of difference. Had you never known what a grapefruit was, or indeed what any other fruit was, a lemon and an orange could indeed seem awfully similar.

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