Question regarding future NH events and armylists

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me_in_japan
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Re: Question regarding future NH events and armylists

Post by me_in_japan » Mon May 21, 2012 2:04 pm

@badruck - we're talking about fan dexes in general here, not about your fan dex specifically. (well, at least, I am). I have no doubt that you play for fun and that you are not deliberately trying to over power your homebrewed dex. That's a given.

but

we're talking about the great wide world here, and there are defo folk out there who, if given the opportunity, could build a fan dex that was so out-there overpowered it'd be dull as dirt to play against. This is why we're having a big discussion about fan dexes. With regards to the question "why home brew when theres a GK dex there for the power gamers?" I would say: a lot of people who write fan dexes have invested a lot of their soul into it. they love their baby very much. They toil over it and try to invest it with as much of the image in their head as they can. But, what they often fail to recognise is that while something may work very well from a fluff persepective, game rules have to prioritise fairness and fun for both players. This is why space marines in novels can punch a carnifex to death, whereas space marines on the tabletop get killed by ork boyz in CC. fan dexes tend to be labours of love. Rulebooks should be labours of logic.

Yeah, I know - way to rain on the fandex parade, MiJ. :roll: I'm not saying fan dexes cant work. I'm just saying that if you (not you specifically. you in the general sense of "humanity") want to invent a new race, give them culture and history and personality, create special characters and interesting methods of waging war for them, then by all means do so. Go write a short story. A set of rules otoh, needs to be written from a far more remote perspective. Prim has laid down a pretty thorough set of guidelines in his thread about fandex writing. I think if we all abide by them we have a hope of producing something playable. If we just run into fandex writing as "wouldnt it be cool if..." then we're only going to end up arguing when someone points out that our beloved elite assault unit we spent days thinking about is just a weeeee tad too hard to kill.

actually, on that note, i just had an idea. How about whoever comes up with the idea for a dex doesnt actually write the rules? He could write a paragraph or so about what he wants the unit to be able to do, either from a fluff or gameplay perspective, and the rest of the forum users can suggest an actual statline/special rules? that would prevent most of the issues inherent in fandex overpowering, or at least minimise them, maybe? Just a thought...
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Admiral-Badruck
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Re: Question regarding future NH events and armylists

Post by Admiral-Badruck » Mon May 21, 2012 3:14 pm

I am still waiting for the show of hands. Who has played a fan dex.


But in responseto MiJs thoughts on the matter... fan dex that are not veted should not be considered that is a given. I would love to vet the GK BAngels and the Necrons dexis before anyone gets to play them(like that will ever happen) in an ideal world we would. IA books and fan dexis should surely be looked at and I would be the first to say yes that is a bit over the top. If it is. But with the stuff that is out there already. I think I may have a hard time finding something over the top.

What I am trying to say to everyone is first have an open mind. 2nd play against some of the fan dexis that are out there and then make up your mind.

After you have done that. Then say with conviction the dex is broken and needs a tune up.
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Re: Question regarding future NH events and armylists

Post by job » Mon May 21, 2012 3:33 pm

Admiral-Badruck wrote:For any one that thinks all fan dexies are broken I want to see an honest show of hands.

Who has played against one.

If you haven played aginast one what the potatoes are you talking about... Befor anyone condenms something they have not played against.

The should consider the following.

Why would some one go to all that trouble just to win when they could easly take buy the Gknights codex and drop a crazy brutal army build on someones head.

The last three years i have taken armis that I liked to Nagoya hammer. To be quite honest I do not think I have ever tried to power game. I have just played for fun.

I have never thought of the games at Nagoya Hammer as competitive sorry just has not crossed my mind I wanted to take fun stuff and try to win. The same would be true with a fan dex written by me.

I have no idea what job said in his post it it was against fandexes I do not blame him any more than the rest of you nay sayers. I plan to play for fun. If I win I know and you will know it will not be because of my dex. It will be because I got extreem ly lucky. Trust me if codex grot revolutionaries is over powered in any way. I will not be playing it....
Who are "they"?

I'm sensing a great deal of hostility from you, man. :? You didn't even read the post that I retracted out of difference for you and your goals, that included no "nay-saying" but you've managed to have passed judgement on it.

Everyone here is trying to be supportive. Nobody has dismissed your ideas or project but only stated their legitimate skepticism or doubts, if they have any.

Can you stop taking an oppositional stance and just come over and join us? We're on the same team. :)
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job
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Re: Question regarding future NH events and armylists

Post by job » Mon May 21, 2012 3:41 pm

BTW, what I deleted was just some points on the fact the fandex writer needs to not fight skepticism about his work, but rather be circumspect, consider the concerns, be open minded and then persuasive. And "persuasive" means not calling his skeptics "crazy" or "Nay-sayers". The burden lies with the author to convince his game mates that he's produced something fair and fun. (And I'm sure you will with the Grot Revolutionaries :) )

The other point was addressed to your remark about the possible 6th ed. Tau codex eliminating the need for a fandex. Then you go on about complaining how over powered new GW codexes tend to be. :? Doesn't that defeat your point? You're only unsatisfied if your Tau or Orks are underpowered but content if they are more powerful. Then you complain about the power-gaming of your opponents who play SW, BA or GK?
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Re: Question regarding future NH events and armylists

Post by Admiral-Badruck » Mon May 21, 2012 3:53 pm

I am not up set but I will defend the issue. I am not about sides as I can see they are well defined... I ask a question and I still do not have an answer. Who has played against a fan dex. I know prim has I know I have and glory be I looks like we are the ones saying lets make more or these things.

If I come off as judgmental it is because I am... Saying no to a fan dex or saying fandexes are bad before one has ever played against them is just a tad bit judgmental in its own right. What I am saying is do not knock it until you have tried it.

I wish the text you wrote was still up I would like to know what you think. We have talked and you know how I am. And every one is aware that I really suck at writing. Those that are not aware will know after a few post. But there is nothin any one can say to make me stop writing my codex grot revolutionaries (i have writen it already it is just amatter of cutting it down and making it play able if someone does not agree with me that is the whole point of posting it...In fact I would hope that most would not agree with me if something I write up is over powered or complicated. I will keep something's on the board until I have play tested them to see if they are in fact over powered or if they are just more of the same. Looks great on paper plays mama
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Re: Question regarding future NH events and armylists

Post by Admiral-Badruck » Mon May 21, 2012 3:58 pm

The thing is I do not really think the so called top codexes are all that hot. Any dex can smoke the other if they bring the right tools for the job. It is all about the players.

The talk about the tau is just for fun who knows what will happen with the Tau but they are due and I am not going to bother with tau for now I have bigger fish to fry.
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Re: Question regarding future NH events and armylists

Post by ashmie » Mon May 21, 2012 4:05 pm

for now I have bigger fish to fry
Like ash at next years speed painting comp ;) :)

Ah fandex, OK I can admit I didn't even know what a fandex was until today. If someone asked me what a Fandex was out of the blue I would think that they were talking about womens things and leave the room to make tea. Fandex the best a woman can get. :lol:
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Re: Question regarding future NH events and armylists

Post by ashmie » Mon May 21, 2012 4:12 pm

Don't mind me fellas, I'm just trying to get my posts back up to a 1000. :)
Carry on.
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Re: Question regarding future NH events and armylists

Post by job » Mon May 21, 2012 4:34 pm

But there is nothin any one can say to make me stop writing my codex grot revolutionaries (i have writen it already it is just amatter of cutting it down and making it play able if someone does not agree with me that is the whole point of posting it...In fact I would hope that most would not agree with me if something I write up is over powered or complicated. I will keep something's on the board until I have play tested them to see if they are in fact over powered or if they are just more of the same. Looks great on paper plays mama
I think if you do post it, go through a thorough revision process and playtest it throughly you'll probably win over the crowd on this forum. That said, again I don't recall reading anyone trying to stop you either. I'd consider people are for you. I am certainly.


Also, so it doesn't quiet get buried in this thread, I do like MiJ's idea about having your mate right a statline to give you some consideration of what other people think is a balanced representative line. You could definitely use the info to help create your final numbers. :idea:
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Re: Question regarding future NH events and armylists

Post by Primarch » Mon May 21, 2012 10:43 pm

In answer to Badrucks question, I have played with and against fan made rules, namely the 30K rules done by Tempus Fugitives and the Movie Marines list done as an April Fools joke by the US white dwarf team.
Both were ridiculously overpowered. The 30K list was balanced if you took it against another army from the same ruleset, but compared to a regular 40K list it was way better. Likewise the Movie Marine list was stupidly good, though the marine player was limited to only 10 marines.

However, the 30K rules were designed to be played in a certain format, one where EVERY player used them. Likewise the Movie Marine list made it clear from the get-go that it was never meant to be taken seriously.

So why did I play them? They were fun. Having rules for Corax or Loken or Garro was interesting. Being able to play with characters straight out of the Horus Heresy series was aces. The Movie Marines list was just something different to try and going in to the game the person on the receiving end knew they would lose, but then we switched roles and tried it from the other side.

Sorry Admiral, but having played against Fan based rules, I can say that they have the potential to be more brolen than anything Ward has ever written. The nay sayers have a point and calling them asshats doesn't help. BUT..... the fan rules were FUN!!! And if they had been written with the intention of being used alongside regular games, then they have a great deal of potential. So maybe the Admiral has a point when he says that people should at least give things a chance and keep an open mind. The support for the Codex Grots idea has been good so far, so lets give it a chance and see how it goes before making up our minds and digging in our heels.
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