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Yes folks, Prim is bored again and has too many thoughts rattling around inside his noggin, so here we go with another thread where we talk about another of my bizarro ideas.

Why do we need minis in our games? Obviously they look cool, they are fun to collect and buld and many of us like painting them, but do we even need them? For games where line of sight is important, minis can be very helpful in showing what a unit can/cannot see and in skirmish style games they can represent weapons and gear very easily. In other games, minis simply represent bodies on the tabletop, but really dont need to be 3 dimensional. For example, in Warmachine, the height of a model is determined by it's base size as much as by the model itself and wargear is fixed for each unit.

As the cost of wargaming continues to rise (with some companies more than others), I am fast approaching the point where I cannot buy/play everything that I would like to. For me, my hobby can be split into two parts, collecting models and playing games, yet I can see no direct reason why one HAS to relate directly to the other. Playing with miniatures means I have to paint them (in an ideal situation), something that takes a lot of time and also requires a considerable investment on the part of everyone who wants to join in. Many boardgames manage to make do without state of the art CAD generated vacuum molded pieces and are still a lot of fun to play.

I realise that selling rulebooks is not an area where many companies make their profits and that they rely on sales of models to continue to grow and expand. Also, as I said before, I like collecting and making models, so I am not talking about giving that up directly. Miniatures do look great on the tabletop, but with all that said how would you feel about playing games with tokens or 2D representations in place of actual miniatures?

If I am playing a boardgame I can do without miniatures. This does depend on the style of game however. BloodBowl and Space Hulk would interest me a lot less without minaitures.

As for games like 40K, Mordheim and other such if their ilk, I would never have gotten started in them were it not for the minis. I can't imagine playing them without the minis. I am quite a keen proxier and modeller so see no need for certain games to use certain minis to be honest. Any generic power armoured behemoth could be a space marine, and any brutish looking thing could be an ork for me.

The game for me is a visual experience as much as anything else.

I am with Spevna all the way as for working out the game you really do not need models for FB to make the game work nor do you really need models for BP but it makes the game mor fun to look at... It is like risk I have played it with little wooden squares and with little army men it is funny with little army men.

Well I have had a lot of fun playing map-board "war" games, like Titan. I don't think I would have any problem with using, say, tokens with a picture of the model on them or something similar for 40K type games. Not having expensive models certainly would make it easier for new people to get into. And it would let you change your army list whenever you want at minimal cost.

After playing miniature wargames for a while, though, I can see appeal. it does add a lot visually to the game, and painting and modeling is a big part of the hobby - creating your own themed army and colour scheme and so on makes you feel more invested in your army. (so I imagine, anyway-my guys don't have a very unified colour scheme or much fluff added to them, but I like them anyway!)

I play the wargames for the minis, I don't collect the minis for the wargames. For me, if you take away the minis, you take away the point. I mean, 40k is hardly the bestest wargame ruleset in the world, is it? The background/aesthetic, however, is bloody good. That's what sets it apart from all the other games out there.

Just my ２円 - I appreciate that everyone does this for different reasons.

I enjoy board games, too, but it is a different experience than a miniature based game. We super-impose ourselves on to the miniatures, thus making the experience seem more 'real' and thus we have a greater investment in the win or lose aspect. I'd say this is true even for D and D games as much as for army games like fantasy and 40k.

That being said, I would have no qualms about using tokens etc for a game that wasn't my main interest, in my case something like Blood Bowl, in order to join in the fun without selling my house, losing my savings and then my wife. (I really would like to see the Games Workshop's Value Chain and see just how much profit is being made at the point of sale to retailers. I would then be in a position to make an educated conclusion on this whole cost issue)

I'm with the gang here. I think the visual aspect of minatures, coupled with the tangible nature really helps inspire the imagination. Computer games can always give use more dramatic visuals, but it lacks often space for imagination. (Actually I'm quiet fond of older versions of games like Sid Meier's Gettysburg, Civilization and Shogun Total War (1) because they left a lot to you to imagine.) Board games are often cheaper and have great strategic elements, but they often lack the visual effects.

I might also add there's something uniquely personal about minatures. When you invest time to buy, collect, model and paint them, they really take on a part of your personality on the table. Kind of like being a general or action hero for a few hours. It is very much like an "avatar".

That last thing I'd say, is I think that it might be an illusion to think that war game prices have been going up. I think it has always been a fairly pricey affair. Maybe GW prices are creeping up over the years. Still, I have to say with increasing numbers of game systems, more international manufacturers, supplemental manufacturers, copyright laws clearly not protecting GW attempts to make itself exclusive; this has probably all added up to have made real prices go down. Add in inflation I bet you'd find the average real price of wargaming has been going down.
An example I'd propose is 15mm WWII games. When I started there was FOW and some specialty 15mm casters (Peter Pig/ Old Glory - cheap!- / a few others). Now there are some real competitors driving the bottom line: Plastic Soldier Company, Forged in Battle; and these are real competitors selling a wide array of models, in large volumes and really angling to be competitors with BF.
I think when you take all things into account, I bet it is mostly our imaginations and the old tendency to become nostalgic as we grow older that tends to lead us to believing things are becoming more expensive.

me_in_japan wrote:I play the wargames for the minis, I don't collect the minis for the wargames.

That. There's not been a miniatures game yet that I've got into because the rules were interesting. It's all about the shiny toys.

Granted, boardgames are different. I can get into them for the gameplay - or at least the theme - without them needing shiny gubbins. Command and Colours - Ancients, for example, is a fantastic hex wargame, using nothing more visually appealing than wooden blocks with stickers on. Having said that, it's look even better using 6mm miniatures in place of the blocks ...

Another thing to consider is why many people feel the need to use Company X's miniatures with Company X's rules. For example, Dave said "I mean, 40k is hardly the bestest wargame ruleset in the world, is it? The background/aesthetic, however, is bloody good." So why not use your existing 40K minis and play Stargrunt, Tomorrow's War, Rogue Trader, or whatever - or pick the bits you like from each game and make your own.

I don;t know about you lot, but I buy miniatures vastly more quickly than I paint the things. I could stop buying now and still be painting for the next year or two or three (or more!).

AndrewGPaul wrote:Another thing to consider is why many people feel the need to use Company X's miniatures with Company X's rules. For example, Dave said "I mean, 40k is hardly the bestest wargame ruleset in the world, is it? The background/aesthetic, however, is bloody good." So why not use your existing 40K minis and play Stargrunt, Tomorrow's War, Rogue Trader, or whatever - or pick the bits you like from each game and make your own.

I don;t know about you lot, but I buy miniatures vastly more quickly than I paint the things. I could stop buying now and still be painting for the next year or two or three (or more!).

Could not agree more. I would love to give FUBAR a go with someone.