Thrashing a Newb or letting him/her win?

[Admiral-Badruck]

With respect to Warmahordes it seem like kind of a lame game to me you have a leader and if it dies your done.... not really keen on that... not too sure about the shooting being just 10 inches for most things especially when most things can charge farther than that... not keen on the look of the Jacks but I am not writing it off completely once I get my Troll Bloods I will play them and most-likely get owned for a few games. I had a talk with Prime about my LAC armies AKA themed armies... where do they fit in?

[The Other Dave]

As for assassination and shooting, well, those are both pretty fundamental to the game. Protecting your leader while trying to whack the other guy's is a big part of the strategy - that said, there are quite a few leaders who are hard as nails, who you'll want up front, and who are pretty hard to kill (they tend to trade off by being less good at magic). For Trolls, look at Borka for a tough, up-front caster, and Madrak in the starter box is no slouch. There's things you can do to extend range, too, and Trolls have access to several of them, but in the end it's not a shooting game, it's a face-stomping game.

Themed armies will be in your army book. Basically different warlocks have access to different themes - by limiting your troop selections you can get access to bonuses. Generally pretty minor stuff, removing limitations on other units, giving the ability to deploy 4" extra, that kind of thing. Theme lists are generally not seen as ways to make your army stronger, but rather ways to make it more flavorful.

[Primarch]

With respect to Warmahordes it seem like kind of a lame game to me you have a leader and if it dies your done.... not really keen on that... not too sure about the shooting being just 10 inches for most things especially when most things can charge farther than that... not keen on the look of the Jacks but I am not writing it off completely once I get my Troll Bloods I will play them and most-likely get owned for a few games. I had a talk with Prime about my LAC armies AKA themed armies... where do they fit in?

You prefer "roll dice and tie" perhaps?
The game isnt really a shooting game, though some armies can do it reasonably well. The assassination rule means that you always have to take care with your main character. You cant just throw it at something big without support like you can in 40k, because in your opponent's turn you'll be left facing everything they can throw at you. As ToD says, once you get the hang of it, its an awesome game. However, as with every game it may not be for everyone.
There's no real way to customise units beyond paint jobs and maybe a little greenstuff. The tier (theme) lists basically force you to purchase certain units in exchange for minor benefits. Sometimes the units you're limited too work well together, sometimes they dont. I dont think most people bother with them all that much.

[Admiral-Badruck]

I was not really talking about WarMhordes when I said theme armies. I was just thinking of armies like my Tau... aka the new kicking boys of 40k... if you make an army that is not "optimal" and some one shows up with a Take no prisoners amy it kind of sucks... when you get plowed over... and if you do that to a new guy he/she will not play the game any more...or he might switch armies to something less themed cheese and lame... the way I see it when it comes to new guys one should teach them how to play the game not just play them with their most hyped up list...

[Primarch]

the way I see it when it comes to new guys one should teach them how to play the game not just play them with their most hyped up list...

Was anyone suggesting that?
As Pikey likes to say, Keep It Simple, use basic armies to show someone the game and dont worry about themed lists or spam. In fact, you could build both lists yourself and that way you know the game will be somewhat balanced. Avoid the stuff that you know is overpowered and that take some experience to counter effectively (Thunderwolves or Biker Nobs). Dont build lists tailored to take each other down and try to include a variety of units. All of this will help catch the other persons interest without getting them overly confused or upset. At the end of the day it all comes down to the dice anyway, so you may still stomp them even if you are trying not to.
Even if someone is an experienced player, its still not much fun to play games with a hard list against a soft list unless you really like an uphill battle from the start. Games are always more fun when both players bring the same 'level' of lists to the game.

[Admiral-Badruck]

No one was suggesting this I just did not want the whole thread to turn in to a how to make WarMahordes in to themed lists...

I guess the only disagreement I have with what you just wrote is... I would not use a variety of units. I would use a limited number of units to show them how one or two units work. I would take infantry and an IC in 40k and I would not take any kinds of models that makes the rules more complicated. Save lots o variety for another game says I... but I could be wrong...

example.. I have normally lost my games with new gamers or have had a draw with them. I the last time a crushed someone new was in Blood Bowl, that was a long time ago, and I am happy to say that I have grown up a bit since then.
That said; the guy I crushed went on to buy a team of Blood Bowl and played on line for several years before the guys organizing the online league stopped running it. I stomped the same guy in a game of Necromunda and he went on to love that game as well...
I got crushed by a new guy in a game of 40k a while back and he has never showed up to play again...
I guess my big question is what works? What will bring new guys and girls in to the hobby? What keeps them out? More over when it comes to wining and getting beat what brings people in and what drives them out?

[Primarch]

I guess my big question is what works? What will bring new guys and girls in to the hobby? What keeps them out? More over when it comes to wining and getting beat what brings people in and what drives them out?

Well, the only new guy I brought into the hobby was...you know who. So I dont think I'm really qualified to answer that question, but that wont stop me from trying.

I do believe that there is a lot more to it than just winning and losing though. Not everyone is in the hobby just to play the game. There are painty types (M_i_J), collector types(Me) and people who just like hanging out with their friends(Spev). Likewise, people have different things they want from the game, do they want a beer and chips game or a serious competitive environment? It's possible they will try 40k and hate it, but when they try blood bowl they love it. People's time, availability and other commitments all make a difference, as does the availability of the game, availability of opponents and overall cost of entering the hobby.

For example, in Yokkaichi there is a hobby shop which runs a very popular gaming event twice a week. The models are readily available, the shop is open at convenient times and people can just walk right in. I have found that when models/games/toys aren't available to buy on the spot, it can be difficult getting a new game to take off or getting a new player into the game.

[The Other Dave]

That's easy, I think - in theory, at least.

What brings them back is having fun. 95% of that is playing friendly, laid-back people who don't get tense and lose their, um, sheet when they're losing and who don't lord it over you and smirk when they're winning, but who do their best to involve you in the excitement of winning and losing nonetheless. I don't think what armies you use for the demo game matter nearly as much as what you bring to the demo game.

Like, I'm totally not surprised that most of they guys you've introduced to the hobby, Badruck, kept with it. You're a nice guy and a lot of fun to play against.

(That said, though, and to be a bit less mushy, I do think it's important to choose armies / units / what-have-you that show off what's cool about the game you're demoing. I wouldn't think, these days, of demoing Epic without at least one titan on the table, even though they add a whole layer of complexity to the game.)

[Admiral-Badruck]

very well explained there TOD... I think you make a great point about bringing the really cool and fun units to the table I guess playing War Machine with out jacks (even though I think they look a bit lame) would be less of and experience.

The game not being someones "thing" would be another thing to consider. I guy who hates sports would most likely not be to in to Blood Bowl...

[me_in_japan]

sorry - a bit late in the day to chime in here, but here' s my two yen:

I agree with spev - play as you would normally play, but explain what you're doing and why. e.g.

"I'm moving my falcon here so I can charge you with my banshees next turn. Thats good for me, and very bad for you. What are you going to do about it? Right - move out of charge range and whale on that sucker with your devastators."

I also think that its good to bring a nice varied army (or pair of armies) to a newb game. A bit of everything to show the ropes is good. e.g. a coupla guardian squads, a small squad of scorps (with an exarch, to show squad leaderiness), a wave serp, a squad of reapers, and an autarch would be a good intro eldar army. Maybe a warwalker or two. Nothing fancy (harleys, warlocks, wraithlord), but a bit of variety nonetheless.

As for my first game of warmahordes, I believe it was against ToD, and I lost. I still havent gotten the hang of warcasters being the be-all and end-all of winning, and neither have i gotten the hang of warjacks getting their assess handed to them by infantry, BUT, I enjoy the games, and I actually enjoy the feeling of having a lot to learn. I quite like the fact that your army general is important, unlike 40k, where he is a great big disposable asset.

As for themed lists in warmahordes, they do exist. Each army has a large range of play options. Pick a style - thats your theme.

e.g. Cryx
I have 2 themed armies

1) slinky (lots of stealthy, fast stuff)
Caster - The Witch Coven
Satyxis raiders (pirate witches)
satyxis solo thingy woman (witch)
warwitch siren
The fleajack (whatsisname) (stealth warjack)
Cankerworm (fast, stealthy warjack)
Leviathan (not that stealthy, but it can hide underwater!)

2) stinky (lots of zombies and mecha-zombie things)
Caster - Morty
Bile thralls (zombies)
scrap thralls (and necrotech) (machine zombies)
machine wraith (wraithy thing)
Soul hunters (zombie cyborg centaurs)
Deathjack (the big bad)
The flying chickenjack who's name escapes me, but looks all tattered.

Anyway, these are two distinct lists in my head. Visually distinct, and playstyle distinct. I'm planning a 3rd list (the list of whuppass - Venethrax and lots of Bane thralls/knights and trollbloods.)

so, thats my take on the debate so far