I will be back....

[Primarch]

This was my favourite news story of them all.

FOX NEWS.

As M_i_J says, the amount of scare mongering and crazy headlines is worrying. I saw some articles with the headline EVACUATE TOKYO NOW!!! and the content was all a bunch of scientists, engineers and experts saying, "There's no real danger, everything is ok."

It also doesnt help that the papers put pictures of the devestation caused by the Tsunami next to the headlines about the imminent Nuclear Apocalypse, it gives a very bad impression about it and distracts from the very real crisis of thousands of people without food, water, heat and homes.

[Spevna]

There is bugger all to worry about.

Basically you should ignore anything you read in the English newspapers as it is complete and utter rubbish.

http://tedmphoto.blogspot.com/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12789749

Those are pretty on the ball.

[ashmie]

That's reassuring. I have spent hours online looking into it. Greenpeace seemed to pick up some worrying readings in and around the plant and outside the evacuation zones of course.
I do know that nuclear power leaks are nothing to brush off as harmless so we should think seriously about these threats. Tepco have admitted they have done all they can now and the CO is off work with stress and high blood pressure.
At first I thought the media were just selling papers and going mental but now I'm starting to feel like the warnings and what ifs should be heeded.
Yes there is a nuclear power station close to Nagoya in Shizuoka and it's on a fault line apparently. Again this is worth looking into in more detail. Some Japanese have been protesting in Nagoya already about this due to what happened at Fukushima.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamaoka_Nu ... ower_Plant

It looks like it has been shut down in 2009. Not sure if they are still using it but I guess they are storing the spent nuclear power there still. Its unclear.

I think the worst reports I saw were CNN saying people were fleeing Tokyo and then filming empty ramen shops that weren't very popular "Just look at this noodle shop, normally it has a line right around the block."

When they announced the plutonium was constantly leaking into the sea I thought oh dear we should be careful about what we eat and where we swim.

As mentioned before this overshadows the main tragedy which was the tsunami devastation.

[Spevna]

I was looking at readings on a website that measures the level of radiation in the water in Mie. Rome has 5 times more radiation than Mie does.

Please dont start believing the "warnings" in the newspapers. They are not warnings. They are the hysterical rantings of uninformed twats. The number of quality articles are vastly outnumbered by the number of useless ones.

Read this;

http://ukinjapan.fco.gov.uk/en/news/?vi ... =569052582

and this;

http://jpquake.wikispaces.com/Journalist+Wall+of+Shame

[me_in_japan]

I'm with Mus. Seriously - people who are against nuclear power or believe we should find alternatives are people who dont know what theyre talking about. I dare ya - find a single person with the appropriate qualifications and experience in the field who says "we should get rid of nuclear power. Its too dangerous."

im not suggesting its harmless, but its a lot less harmful than a bloody coal burning station, i can tell you that. The only viable (long term) alternative is renewable resources like solar or hydro, and to get that up to the power levels required to replace the worlds nuclear power station will take, way, way more money than the world's governments will be willing to throw at it, i can promise you that. ooodlesquillions of dollars, at least. The same people who are protesting nuclear power now will be out in their hordes complaining that all the wind turbines spoil the view/the wave turbines upset the fish/the solar panels give the seagulls sunburn, you can be sure of that, too.

The thing that folks seem to be missing is:

This installation was hit by a magnitude 9 earthquake, then was hit by the subsequent tsunami, which elsewhere killed 10,000 people, probably nearer 20,000 people, flattened homes for kilometres square, caused death and devastation on a scale previously unprecedented in the history of japan (WW2 notwithstanding) and what happened to the station?

it got a wee crack, and leaked a bit.

seriously, thats pretty bloody well done by the engineers, no? All this running around yelling and shouting that nuclear power is dangerous, and germany shutting down its nuclear power stations n whatnot is asshattery in its highest form. You get a lot of magnitude 9 earthquakes in germany, do you? See a lot of 14m tsunami in berlin? no? well stop f*king about wasting time on scaremongering and get on with sorting out the european economy. Do something about Libya while youre at it. Deal with a real problem, in other words.

Nuclear power is by far the best power source available to humanity at its present level of technological development. In the nearish future, when we start to run out of burnables the gas/oil companies will miraculously whip out some better tech that they can market and make a profit on (efficient solar etc, maybe even fusion (heres hoping)) but until then, I vote Nuclear all the way.

*edit* just read that first article mus posted. Good reading.
*edit* just read the second. Hoorah for people who catalogue the litany of twats I shall be directing anyone who mails me with the ol "are you ok in Japan dave? what about the radiation problem" question to these pages in the future.

Once more, with feeling!

Facts are the impregnable bulwark that stands between us and the insidious evil of bullsh*t.

[ashmie]

Fair enough. But nuclear power is dangerous no matter what you say, especially when the power stations are leaking. It's unwise to dismiss this as nonsense even if the media do hype it up. Now at a time when the nuclear leak is at it's worst the media have decided to stop reporting it! So a lot of help they were. Just gossip all along.
The Japanese media had the right idea in giving us only the facts. This way we could be assured there was no reason to panic. Mass panic is the last thing we need in this situation. That is a good way to control the nation and keep them calm. The international media are out of control and immoral but for good reason.
To say exposure to radiation this high is the same as having an x ray, eating a banana or taking a long haul flight is inaccurate and not only that it's a lie. They must quell panic. Greenpeace have recorded levels outside the evacuation zone. For example standing in a rice field for 8 hours a short way from the exclusion zone would give someone their yearly dose of radiation. Please check their website for the readings.
The radiation is already in the sea. Although this is seen as better than it being on land as it dilutes the radiation so that is a positive for us not so much to ocean life and fish stocks. No one is buying fish from Japan now.

It's not only earthquakes and tsunamis that trigger nuclear accidents. Fallen planes, terror, lax workers who forget to do something like shut a door or switch something off. My friend knew someone who used to work at Hinkley Point power station and some of the stories weren't worth thinking about. Too scary. Things like forgetting to close off areas of the plant which let out radiation, when only two guys were manning it. Most of these things have been covered up or never make the press.

We must dismiss things that scaremonger but to say nuclear energy is safe is a drastically dangerous oversight.
I'm a Bennite so I would say that. I also believe alternatives could be found in wind and water energy and I am certain other non nuclear supporters would not oppose those things. It's ridiculous to pigeon hole a group into what they may or may not think of course. The money governments spend on arms and the rich which is taken from the welfare state could easily be used to fund a non nuclear programme.

Recently in Britain libraries and services and benefits are being cut all across the land. Trains no longer have staff on platforms to check if the platform is safe. Fares are robbery. Front line police officers are being made to take desk jobs while the admin staff (regular Jos) are made redundant. Bus services have stopped running, social services are at a low, job seekers benefit has been made impossible to claim, staff in supermarkets have been slowly replaced by automatic checkouts and customers using hand held barcode scanners.
Big protests are taking place here in London. It's a big time for change and the government are going to have to do something because the people are waking up. I'm not talking about your usual 'right on' hippie leftists either. I'm talking about regular day to day Mums and Dads, Aunties and Uncles, Grandparents and children who have been hit hard by these cuts. 300,000 marched last Saturday and more demands are planned for Good Friday.
To combat debt and the economic crisis, you don't stop people from going to libraries and receiving health care. That is not the reason we are in a financial mess. It is the expense of the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya plus the greed of the bankers that have used up the funds. The commercial banks should pay for the crisis, not the people. Change can happen and we can make it happen. Apathy and fear of the state is our worst enemy. They want us to feel nothing can be done and to not want to find alternatives to the worlds problems so the system of money making and greed can continue without the majority of society getting a say.

As for nuclear leaks,

I'm not prepared to accept the risks to myself, my family and friends that nuclear power brings. I don't care how cheap it is. The new international god of money that has replaced our existing codes and faiths must step down. Money talks and nonsense walks. There must be other ways for world energy.
Lets make it happen.

[Mike the Pike]

people who are against nuclear power or believe we should find alternatives are people who dont know what theyre talking about. I dare ya - find a single person with the appropriate qualifications and experience in the field who says "we should get rid of nuclear power. Its too dangerous."

I can't resist any longer. I really can't. My inner trouble maker can no longer resist.

Surely, MIJ, someone that has invested their time and energy in gaining said qualifications and experience would hardly be the most neutral of observers, ne? Oddly enough, there are not many 5-star generals who think War is ultimately wrong and should be done away with. Nor are there likely to be many folks on the other side who gained their PhD's in Environmental studies etc who are likely to say "Nuclear Power is the only way!".

As for Earthquakes in Germany, as you well know, there aren't any. However you seem to have forgotten that Japan's only fatal Nuclear accident (2 dead 1 critically injured) was caused by 3 'qualified' workers mixing fissile material in a a bucket (!!!) something that went against all rules and protocols. While Germany doesn't suffer many earthquakes, it does have a sizeable population of accident prone humans. By the way, if nuclear is the "best" power source available, then why is it that only around 30 countries actually use it? The vast majority of countries, including some very populous and prosperous nations, don't seem to see the need.

As for viable alternatives, they already exist , there really isn't the need for such a reliance on Nuclear power.　Don't believe me. Well here is some personal experience. When we built our house we installed a modest solar power system. In Summer we are usually about even with power consumption and production. In Spring and Autumn we usually makea wee bit of money. In Winter, unfortunately, we are in the red but not as much as you would think.While the initial set-up was quite expensive, in the long run we will recoup our initial outlay easily and then some.

There's another 'source' of energy that's even better than solar, wind or wave energy and 'readily' available right now at bargain basement prices. It's called energy efficiency. If consumers in the developed world were a bit more careful about energy usage and didn't run out to buy every new-fangled energy guzzling gadget on the market, the potential energy savings would be immense.

Rant (almost) over

I feel I should add, that I am also appalled by the terrible scaremongering going on in the media. Even well regarded newspapers and TV networks with 'good' reputations have been blowing things out of proportion. While my eyes were well and truly open beforehand to the fact that one shouldn't believe everything one reads or sees in the media, this situation has only reinforced that view a hundred fold. Shame on the media!

Finally, at those from this group who are overseas and wondering whether it's worth even coming back to Japan, there is nothing to worry about in the Chubu area. As has been said before, Ash received more radiation flying home than any of us here in the Japanese Midlands. The only direct effect I have experienced was when I went to Denny's last night for dinner. The menu was very limited due to disruption to the companies supply routes caused by the Earthquake/Tsunami (not the Fukushima incident).

[me_in_japan]

Surely, MIJ, someone that has invested their time and energy in gaining said qualifications and experience would hardly be the most neutral of observers, ne?

usually this would be a fair point, I agree, but in that case it would logically follow that the people who shout the loudest against nuclear power are the ones who know least about it. (the more you understand, the less it bothers you.) People tend to fear and mistrust things they dont understand, which is just human nature, but the press abuse this tendancy horribly, to the point where nowadays scientists are automatically the bad guys, and protesters such as greenpeace are portrayed as being on the moral high ground even before the situation has been investigated. Your comment makes it sound like experienced nuclear scientists, having spent a lot of time and effort gaining understanding of their field, would seek to cover up the dangers and risk all sorts of problems just to keep their jobs. This, I think, is not true. If something goes wrong at a nuclear power station, the first people to feel its effects are the ones who work there. If they truly believed it was dangerous they would say so, as it would clearly be in their own best interests to do so. The fact that they do not say this makes it clear that they truly believe it to be safe, not that theyre lying to protect their jobs.

Japan's only fatal Nuclear accident (2 dead 1 critically injured) was caused by 3 'qualified' workers mixing fissile material in a a bucket (!!!) something that went against all rules and protocols.

Its not that i forgot this - i didnt know. I aint omnicognisant y'know. Regardless, you can hardly blame nuclear power for people being stupid. If I walk in front of a bus you dont ban buses, you say "well, he was stupid" and leave it at that.

the vast majority of countries, including some very populous and prosperous nations, don't seem to see the need.

My response to this point leads into all sorts of evil-coal-burning-mega-corporation ideas, much like where Ash seems to be heading, so I wont start. Suffice to say that nuclear power is better for the environment, but thats not in some peoples best interests.

It's called energy efficiency.

I like my iphone/PC/air conditioner etc. I do agree with Ash though that world governments need to stop ploughing money into pointless wars etc and start actually employing scientists, lots of em, to develop a clean, renewable source of energy. Fusion would be lovely, but something equally SF would suit me. Plasma induction? Warp Coils? whatever - I aint fussed

When we built our house we installed a modest solar power system. In Summer we are usually about even with power consumption and production. In Spring and Autumn we usually makea wee bit of money. In Winter, unfortunately, we are in the red but not as much as you would think.While the initial set-up was quite expensive, in the long run we will recoup our initial outlay easily and then some.

In all fairness, I do very much intend to get solar panels on my house, as and when I decide where I want to live. I'm very much in favour of solar power. If the worlds governments ploughed money into building solar panels everywhere (or wind/wave/whatever) and shut down all the nuclear plants then Id be a happy camper. Its not that I think nuclear power is the bestest best thing, its just better than lots of other stuff (but not as good as widespread solar power).

It's unwise to dismiss this as nonsense even if the media do hype it up.

I wouldnt say that its nonsense. Yes, its something that should be reported, but not on the front page. There are far more important issues going on in the world. I feel strongly that nuclear power, while not perfect, does not deserve the reputation that it has.

Greenpeace have recorded levels outside the evacuation zone. For example standing in a rice field for 8 hours a short way from the exclusion zone would give someone their yearly dose of radiation. Please check their website for the readings.

I trust greenpeace even less than the press. Now there's an organisation who's best interests lie in villifying nuclear power. Since theyre a private organisation (rather than a newspaper), they can also pretty much say what they like about things like nuclear power, as as long as they dont make personal remarks, its very hard for them to be done for libel.

*edit* I did indeed take a look at the greenpeace website. They quote THE ONION!!!! as a source, for god's sake!

In examining this position, let's set aside the dangers of nuclear power entirely. Let's accept the satirical assurances of the Onion that nuclear power is 100% safe, "unless anything bad happens."

[Mike the Pike]

Surely, MIJ, someone that has invested their time and energy in gaining said qualifications and experience would hardly be the most neutral of observers, ne?

Your comment makes it sound like experienced nuclear scientists, having spent a lot of time and effort gaining understanding of their field, would seek to cover up the dangers and risk all sorts of problems just to keep their jobs. This, I think, is not true. If something goes wrong at a nuclear power station, the first people to feel its effects are the ones who work there. If they truly believed it was dangerous they would say so, as it would clearly be in their own best interests to do so. The fact that they do not say this makes it clear that they truly believe it to be safe, not that theyre lying to protect their jobs.

Wikipedia would beg to differ.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_po ... tleblowers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nu ... tleblowers

Throughout history, people have been afraid to speak out about dangerous practices in the workplace etc for exactly the reason you mention, they would lose their jobs. Whistleblowers in many industries have based threats and intimidation and worse and once they have gone public often find it impossible to ever work in their chosen field again. IMHO It would be an extremely hard decision for someone with a family to feed, a mortgage, dental bills, what have you to willingly put all that on the line and speak out, knowing that they may never get a similar job again ever. I hope that if I were in the position of some these guys that I would have the guts to speak out. However, a small part of me thinks perhaps I wouldn't. On top of that, whistleblowers are still viewed by society in general as another class of Rat/Fink/Tattle-tail.

As for your assertion that in modern society scientist = bad guy, I have to ask, which country are you living in? In Japan scientists are revered like no-one else. The various Nobel prize winners this country has produced would rank at the very top of folks that people respect in Japan. Even in Sports Mad (Pro-Green) New Zealand we are proud of our scientific achievements. Sir Ernest Rutherford's (ironically the so-called Father of Nuclear physics ) picture is even on our money alongside Good Queen Bess. Greeanpeace member, whilst enjoying more support in NZ than in many other countries are still viewed by mainstream Kiwi's as tree hugging nutters. To illustrate the respect that Scientests have, just look at a few TV commercials. Pseudoscience ranks right up there with sex and celebrity endorsement as an effective marketing tool.For example, take a talentless Tarentou like Becky, put her in a white coat and glasses and people will believe she is some kind of expert on laundry detergent. The girl has probably never washed her own clothes in her life!

P.S. I know Wikipedia is not the best of sources, but then again this is not a Doctoral thesis. Mind you, in Germany, it would appear that a few of those are heavily plagiarized anyway.

[Mike the Pike]

Man, do I ever love these long winded, drawn out, geek battles with MIJ.
This one is even better than the Titan holo field save one.