The Ruckster Rant - Warning contains trash talk

[Colonel Voss]

Well technically you already did buy them twice. Once for the Red Scorpions and once for the 30k World Eaters. Now why didn't you proxy you reds as eaters?

[Admiral-Badruck]

because the red scorpions do not have Assault squads on foot. the World Eaters are my World Eaters Chaos Space marines army as well.. I have a Plague Marine army as well but since it is in the same codex I do not count them as different armies.

[Spevna]

Well you can agree if you like but I am not buying the same models again just to paint them green... silly I tell you...

This!

Unless you love the models and want the army because they look good, there isn't much of a reason to by two load of Space Marines to represent two different Space Marine armies. As long as WYSIWYG is followed then it's all good! A green marine with a bolter is no different to a blue one with a bolter. The differences are not great enough to warrant buying extra minis outside of aesthetics.

[me_in_japan]

agreed. Of course, the easy solution to this multiple-colour dilemma is to stop chopping and changing your chapter choice (ooh, dig my alliterative skills!) and just pick a chapter and stick with it.

[Primarch]

The differences are not great enough to warrant buying extra minis outside of aesthetics.

Precisely. I dont need to have different models for my DA/BA/SW/Multiple SM forces, but I do because I want them to look different. My DA have robes and hoods, the BA have blood drops and saltaires all over them, the SW have wolf pelts and talismans and the various SM forces have little in terms of decoration, but the colour schemes are all different. (e.g. my Crimson Fists have their fists painted crimson).

agreed. Of course, the easy solution to this multiple-colour dilemma is to stop chopping and changing your chapter choice (ooh, dig my alliterative skills!) and just pick a chapter and stick with it.

Exactly. Especially when you tend to rant on about how pure/awesome/killy your chosen chapter is.

I'm not saying Badruck cant use army A as army X, simply that he doesnt have army X, only army A. He could put down his orks and say that today he is using them as eldar. He can play that way, but at no point in time are they actually an Eldar army, and if he did it on a usual basis he would be told to sell off the orks and buy Eldar. This whole discussion kicked off because this is exactly what Badruck does. He doesnt care which army he has, but simply chops and changes his chapter choice (nods at MiJ) to use the most powerful book he can. I'm sure when the Templars get updated we'll be seeing World Eaters led by an Emperors Champion.

...because the red scorpions do not have Assault squads on foot.

It would have been easier just to add foot assault squads to your Red Scorps than to buy, build and paint a whole new army though, so your argument of "Why should I buy a new army just because I want to use a different book?" can be countered with "So why did you then?"

[Colonel Voss]

BA/DA/SW/BT/SM all have different rules. Because of Badab War I have to run my minotaurs under the SM codex. But they have gear rules that aren't covered. So for a while i tried to double them up under the SW codex which is a very different animal. It was a disaster. The two dexes are very different in feel and playability. Some of the assault marine gear that is good for SM just isn't good for SWs and what was strong for the marine dex turned out to be a big disappointment for what I needed during Nagoyahammer. To add insult to injury, I mixed the rules up pretty badly by mistake.

Those little subtleties and even the big ones can be a royal pain. Which codex did this come from? And in the heat of the moment, it's pretty easy to get your rules crossed. After all the miniatures all look alike and you're switching them around freely between codexes.

So yeah, you can switch to your little hearts content, but due to the probability of human error on your part, I think I'll decline playing your marine armies if you do.

[Mike the Pike]

agreed. Of course, the easy solution to this multiple-colour dilemma is to stop chopping and changing your chapter choice (ooh, dig my alliterative skills!) and just pick a chapter and stick with it.

You forgot the most obvious alliterative word: cheese Other good un's could include childish, chomp, chide etc etc.

I would have chided the Madmiral thusly: "Stop all this childish chopping and changing of chapter choices you charm-challenged cheese champ!"

[Primarch]

I would have chided the Madmiral thusly: "Stop all this childish chopping and changing of chapter choices you charm-challenged cheese meister!"

Thats a bit of a tongue twister though.

My own personal response to the Admiral's usual antics is "sigh" #facepalm#

[Spevna]

BA/DA/SW/BT/SM all have different rules. Because of Badab War I have to run my minotaurs under the SM codex. But they have gear rules that aren't covered. So for a while i tried to double them up under the SW codex which is a very different animal. It was a disaster. The two dexes are very different in feel and playability. Some of the assault marine gear that is good for SM just isn't good for SWs and what was strong for the marine dex turned out to be a big disappointment for what I needed during Nagoyahammer. To add insult to injury, I mixed the rules up pretty badly by mistake.

Those little subtleties and even the big ones can be a royal pain. Which codex did this come from? And in the heat of the moment, it's pretty easy to get your rules crossed. After all the miniatures all look alike and you're switching them around freely between codexes.

So yeah, you can switch to your little hearts content, but due to the probability of human error on your part, I think I'll decline playing your marine armies if you do.

This is pretty lame reasoning. Just because you can't remember what is in a codex, doesn't mean the Admiral can't.

Just because some weapons work well with SW assault squads but not with BA assault squads (for example) is neither here nor there. If he has made the choice to double up then he has to face the consequences of crappy weapon choices (if that is indeed the case). And if the codices are as different as you say, there shouldn't be too many problems

He may be switching between codices but it's not like he is switching between them mid game. I'm pretty sure he would have the relevant codex handy and would have had a read the night before the game. Last time I saw you play a game you had enough trouble remembering what your Imperial Guard tanks were armed with (one of them was modelled with one weapon but you played it as another) so maybe you just have trouble remembering things. It's wrong to assume that others do. And if the codices are as different as you say, there shouldn't be too many problems. I don't confuse rules from the CSM codex with those from the Ork one. There is just as much chance of getting confused between the BA and SW codex (for example). The models are all space marines but the codices are still different books.

I think that Prim hit it on the head. Playing your SMs as any codex you want is fine an dandy. It is however pretty lame trying to try and argue that you own 5 armies when in fact it is just one set of models.

[Colonel Voss]

Apples and oranges. Chaos Marines and Orks are two totally different armies with completely different play styles, visual styles, and equipment choices. I have no trouble keeping my Imperial Guard and my Minotaurs seperate either for the same obvious reasons. Now try playing that ork list using the chaos marine minis. See how it goes remembering who has what gear and which unit is which.

Now space marine codexes are a different animal all together. Lots of things are similar but unit A can't take that item in codex B can be taken in codex C. Item D is fine in unit A from codex B but isn't as effective in codex C because of rule E. And item F has different rules in both codexes. Oh and LR1 has a different unit occupation size than in Codex B than Codex C.

Now about the concept of how my memory wasn't good enough that I had to check rules on my third or fourth game of playing IG in 5th edition and not having played since 3rd ed. I for one do not consider it germane to the situation, unless you are willing to also accept that the good admiral has forgotten a lot of basic grammar from elementary school.

In all seriousness, I'm not trying to put the admiral down. Nor am I, as you claim, making any sort of assumption on the abilities of the admiral or anyone else. I am merely saying that when you mix similar rules without a clear line of delineation you can easily confuse the two rule sets, especially when under pressure. It's happened to me and I have seen it happen to others as well. We're all human here and we all make mistakes and that's fine. But I'm not one to put much stock in this type of mixing and matching for anything but a trial of new units before purchasing. That's my opinion, like it, love it, or leave it; I care not which.