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I have no problem with a third party putting the terrain down. Thanks for all the advice Prime. Three stories will really help me stay out of assult range. As far as a best of three game I am down with that. And I figure he is just as much at a dissavantage as I am if I play his army.

Will MIJ allow proxies if the big question.

I know what eldar list that I would bring, is it a battle of the brains or is it okey to come with a suggestion?

frans wrote: is it a battle of the brains?

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!
I guess you have never met the Madmiral

ok, im v tired this evening from a particularly long, arsey day at work, so if i come across as mingey then plz dont take it personally. I agree that everyone has valid points, even badruck's one about proxying. However, here are my reasons for requesting limited proxies:

1) A codex is not just a set of rules. It is a set of limitations that controls what you can and cannot do with a given army. Spevna said that

"The whole argument of what a codex can do in "real life" isn't a valid one as it's complete case by case."

I would disagree. (well of course I would...)The very fact that it is "case by case" means that some codexes are more playable than others. Eldar are not a cheap army to play. Its that simple. Real life is where we all live, like it or not, and financial cost is a factor when army building.

2) Following on from point 1, Eldar models are very hard to scratch build. Again, this affects every eldar army, which must be either paid for at significant expense or converted at considerable effort.

Combining points 1 and 2, I would say to Badruck: Due to the eldar army being what it is (in the really real world,) aside from using the minis ive got, you can either convert/sculpt models to an acceptably identifiable level to represent what you want, or you can buy them. You will find the former to be difficult and the latter to be expensive. Every eldar player in the world has to deal with this. Get used to it. If Mike will lend you his minis, I would also be ok with that. Im not trying to hamstring you out of badness, just trying to make you deal with the problems the eldar codex has, just like every other eldar player does. This is not a hypothetical discussion. If it was, we'd just be posting up army lists and arguing about them.

That said, if Badruck can refrain from spamming units, i would be prepared to accept a bit of proxying, to account for individual player choice whilst shopping.

And on that note, the discussion seems to be veering towards "Is the super duper spammiest most broken list from this codex better than the super duper spammiest most broken list from that codex?". This makes me wonder if people are missing the point. I said the ork codex is broken. Badruck says it isnt. If he has to spam the crap out of the eldar codex to win against what i intend to be as balanced an ork list as i can come up with, then surely that only strengthens my point that orks are overpowered? All things being equal, a balanced army from codex A should stand a decent chance against a similarly balanced army from codex B. Spamming is not the point of 40k. It just aint fun, and if thats what the eldar have to do to win, then I shall be a very disappointed player.

With regards to terrain, sure, yeah, why not? Im not convinced that poor terrain placement is key to all the eldar's crushing defeats at the hands of the orks, but fine, aye - go for it.

Best of 3 games: This one i do agree with completely. As I already suggested having the winner of the Orks/eldar game playing against space marines (as making an all-comers eldar army is a bugger), how about we have orks vs eldar, orks vs marines, eldar vs marines, and if it comes out as a draw, the orks n eldar can play again? I'll do the orks each time, badruck does the eldar, using the same lists each time. Somebody else can pick the marine list, if they want...

OK, thats my tuppence worth. I shall now bugger off and refrain from posting further this evening, as Im only gonna get tireder and grumblier as the evening goes on. I shall catch ye all tomorrow, when hopefully my outlook on the world will be a wee bitty brighter

I would disagree. (well of course I would...)The very fact that it is "case by case" means that some codexes are more playable than others. Eldar are not a cheap army to play. Its that simple. Real life is where we all live, like it or not, and financial cost is a factor when army building.

I would disagree with what you disagreed with Yes, Eldar are expensive BUT the money spent on the titan and super heavy tank could've been spent on other things. I'm not saying spend more money, I'm saying spend it differently if you want to beat orks.

me_in_japan wrote:With regards to terrain, sure, yeah, why not? Im not convinced that poor terrain placement is key to all the eldar's crushing defeats at the hands of the orks, but fine, aye - go for it.

It wasnt bad terrain placement I was talking about so much as choice of terrain. Large ork mobs have trouble when they have to roll difficult terrain tests to get up 2 or 3 storeys as opposed to hiding behind a huge rock and then making one test to get at your guys standing in the edge of a wood. Compare a cities of death style table to, for example, Badruck's gorkamorka style table.

me_in_japan wrote:Best of 3 games: This one i do agree with completely. As I already suggested having the winner of the Orks/eldar game playing against space marines (as making an all-comers eldar army is a bugger), how about we have orks vs eldar, orks vs marines, eldar vs marines, and if it comes out as a draw, the orks n eldar can play again? I'll do the orks each time, badruck does the eldar, using the same lists each time. Somebody else can pick the marine list, if they want...

This sounds like a job for me. No spamming or Ragnar/Njal combos I assume. No probs.

Spevna wrote:

I would disagree. (well of course I would...)The very fact that it is "case by case" means that some codexes are more playable than others. Eldar are not a cheap army to play. Its that simple. Real life is where we all live, like it or not, and financial cost is a factor when army building.

I would disagree with what you disagreed with Yes, Eldar are expensive BUT the money spent on the titan and super heavy tank could've been spent on other things. I'm not saying spend more money, I'm saying spend it differently if you want to beat orks.

Just to bring up one of my points again, then what would he have used in that apoc game we played a while ago? Poor Prim would've been the only person able to bring any super heavies. Remember there is more to playing eldar than just beating one codex. He has other challenges to face as well.

Just to bring up one of my points again, then what would he have used in that apoc game we played a while ago? Poor Prim would've been the only person able to bring any super heavies. Remember there is more to playing eldar than just beating one codex. He has other challenges to face as well.

I don't care what he would or would not have used at the apoc game.I dont need to remember that there is more to playing Eldar than just beating one codex. M_I_J doesn't complain about not being able to win at Apoc. He doesn't have too mnay problems with Space Marines, Imperial Guard, or other codices. He does have a problem beating the Ork codex. He complains about not being able to beat orks. If the Admiral is right, it may just be a matter of him not having the right tools for the job as he chose to spend his money on stuff for apoc.

So My question if the Codex give you a great unit why would you not take 3 of them... I Do not get it at all... but for some reason you guys think you have to take a unit that sucks to have fun... I really may never get that.. some times 3 units that really suck when you take one of them rock when you take more of them...So why should you have to take units that suck.. I sure as hell would not buy a unit that sucked if I new it sucked.. or did not like how it played...I really do not get it at all...

Admiral-Badruck wrote:So My question if the Codex give you a great unit why would you not take 3 of them... I Do not get it at all... but for some reason you guys think you have to take a unit that sucks to have fun... I really may never get that.. some times 3 units that really suck when you take one of them rock when you take more of them...So why should you have to take units that suck.. I sure as hell would not buy a unit that sucked if I new it sucked.. or did not like how it played...I really do not get it at all...

Fun. For both players.