Thrashing a Newb or letting him/her win?

[Admiral-Badruck]

I am getting in to a few new games. Warmahordes and WHFB are 2 new games that I have started playing... I had a game of Warmahordes last weekend, it was good fun but I got stomped. I played a few games of 40k last week with a total newb I played him and he won twice in a row. seemed like he really enjoyed the games.

My question is "should you stomp a baby or should you change his dippers "?

What are your thought guys?

[The Underdweller]

As a relatively new player I would say it is nice to win, but if I knew someone was letting me win I wouldn't have as much fun; also I would probably repeat bad strategies in later games which appeared to be successful but really weren't.

However, if you had some sort of handicap, like playing an army you weren't very familiar with, or which was relatively underpowered, it might make the game more interesting and challenging for the more experienced player as well.

[Colonel Voss]

A handicap is always good. Usually if I play a newb, I take a light army or a deploy really crappy so that I have to come from behind. Usually this makes things a close game which is the best I think.

But some players prefer the school of hard knocks with only a little help.I told Job not to pull punches against me (unless I forget a rule or something) when he was teaching me FoW. First game I got my rear handed to me and the second game I held my own and even gave him a great deal of frustration with the deployment of my Pak40s.

[job]

I say it depends on the players wargaming experience. I think you can expect an experienced table top gamer to be keen about learning the ropes and quickly earning their stripes, while a person new to wargaming often needs more time to understand the concepts.
Voss is of course a veteran of WHFB and 40k, so I figure he knows his way about understanding a new game. He still made some mistakes during his second game, but in handing me a defeat, he showed how quickly he adapted.

I do like the idea of handicaps. Handing a victory to an adult player can serve either to disenchant some people who may see through the niceties, or give them the wrong impression of the game or tactics. (They go into their next game against somebody less generous and they get torn a new one.)
I think a handicap helps teach the strategies of the game while allowing the new player to feel the challenge. I also think it is good to have a veteran advisor help them play the game. Maybe it is best to take that role yourself and find a moderate player (or better yet, another inexperienced gamer) to take the role of the opponent.

[Spevna]

My question is "should you stomp a baby or should you change his pipers"?

What are your thought guys?

Neither.

Stomping a newb is a bit of a douche move.
Letting them win won't help them in the long term.

Assuming the game is just a casual Saturday afternoon game and not a game in a tourny, I would;

1) play the game as you usually would but, as you are having your turn, explain what you are doing and why. As they take their turn, point out any tactical probs and make suggestions so that they learn as they play.

2) Offer alternatives too, eg -"Assaulting my Khorne Berserkers with your Eldar Guardians probably won't end well. You might want to think about using something like your Banshees/ Scorpions instead" .

I know that I would appreciate that if I were a newb.

[ennui]

My question is "should you stomp a baby or should you change his pipers"?

What are your thought guys?

Neither.

Stomping a newb is a bit of a douche move.
Letting them win won't help them in the long term.

Assuming the game is just a casual Saturday afternoon game and not a game in a tourny, I would;

1) play the game as you usually would but, as you are having your turn, explain what you are doing and why. As they take their turn, point out any tactical probs and make suggestions so that they learn as they play.

2) Offer alternatives too, eg -"Assaulting my Khorne Berserkers with your Eldar Guardians probably won't end well. You might want to think about using something like your Banshees/ Scorpions instead" .

I know that I would appreciate that if I were a newb.

This.

I think a new player would rather have fun and learn how to play. Why not just have a friendly game where you give some advice?

[The Other Dave]

Mike, as usual, speaks wisdom.

First game (heck, first several games - these things are complex!) should be a learning experience. Few things turn off new gamers like getting thrashed by a cackling d-bag who uses rules exploits and his opponent's lack of game knowledge to do so. (Not to say Badruck would do this - he's an upstanding guy and we all know it - but I have seen people who do.) I always try to point out obvious blunders or missed opportunities to new players.

'Course, for me personally, "thrash the newb or let him win" isn't always the choice, because I'm not the greatest tactician ever, heh.

[Admiral-Badruck]

lots of good thoughts...keep them coming.

[Primarch]

It seems like most of the folks here have the right idea.
Try to give the other person advice without talking down to them.
Go over the game afterwards and explain if you thought they did something wrong.
Don't 'let' them win, but you dont have to play your A game either. If you make a couple of small tactical errors yourself then you can discuss them afterwards as well.
Definitely NEVER EVER win due to knowing the rules better.

@Badruck - Warmachine is a different beast from WFB/40K. It's not difficult (nice, simple rules etc), but it is different. It's also fun though, so dont let Jus's thrashings get you down.

[The Other Dave]

Yeah, I should note - when teaching people Warmachine / Hordes in particular, I've found that it's actually kind of hard to avoid beating them unless you play the game for them. It's a combination of a couple factors. One, success depends a lot on knowing your force - what powers your war<foo> has (and what powers your beasts have in Hordes), how those powers work together with your 'jacks / beasts and units, what things don't work together, and so on - not to mention knowing what your opponent can bring to the table and how to counter it. Heck, just the simple question of when to pop your 'caster's feat can be pretty deep. There's a bit more of a learning curve than with GW games. Second, there's a lot more dependence on statistics than in GW games, thanks to the 2d6 bell curve. When do you need to boost, when is it simply a good idea, and when is it a waste of focus, all that. That can take some getting used to if you're coming from the flat statistics of 40K / WFB.

On the other hand, once you start playing games where both you and your opponent know the rules and your armies, the game really catches fire. It just takes a bit longer to get there than with 40K.