Badruck Tired of Hearing That's Over Powered or Broken

[Admiral-Badruck]

I have been surfing over the forums and I keep seeing people out there saying how things are broken or over powered... and I am guilty of it too... I think the knee-jerk-reaction to things we have never played against that sound very good, are what we call broken or over powered... the truth is there are good units out there and good formations or strategies but there are ways around most of them.. and great ways to counter even the best combos if one knows how to disarm them.

I am now firmly on the line of thinking that no list can save you no formation or asset/stratagem truly breaks the game. at the end of the day it all comes down to dice and how you maneuver a good list helps and great combos help out as well... At the end of the day a 1 is a 1 and a 6 is a 6 roll well and you will crush your opponent roll badly and you can't win no matter how good your list is..

If you agree back me up if you disagree then help me find the light...

[me_in_japan]

i disagree. Yes, a 1 is a 1 and a 6 is a 6, but if, right from the get-go, you have to rely on getting a lagre number of either of them to win then whatever youre playing against is overpowered, i.e. broken.

By that I mean, technically a lone unit of 5 tactical space marines starting 6 feet away from an eldar titan can win the game, by running across the table, having the titan miss every shot, and then they sneak round the back and kick it in the arse until its dead. Technically possible, but youd have to be looking at a very, very large amount of 1s and 6s to make it happen. Now, an eldar titan is not intended to be in a regular game of 40k, but if it was, id call broken on it.

Take the (gettheebehindmesatan!) Caestus Assault Shoebox.

It moves very, very fast. As fast as, in fact, the fastest thing in the game.
It can carry a large number of terminators, who are dang scary at the best of times. It has a larger transport capacity than anything else in the game.
It is very well armoured. (perhaps not as well as a land raider, but it does have that ablative armour crap.)
It has a hugely dangerous gun on it, particularly when you consider that by the time it slows down enough to shoot its gonna be into your rear armour. I think I can justify calling this the "best armour busting gun in the game."

Does this vehicle force a player to make any tactical choices whatsoever in his army composition? He doesnt need to choose between a shooty army, an assault army, a tough army, or a fast army. he can have all of them, all neatly boxed up in a Caestus. If a player only took one, then maaaaaaaaybe I could live with it, as it is a bit of a points sink if you fill it with termis. But if you take 3? You win. Thats it. Short of miraculously rolling a number of 1s and 6s similar to that required by our marine squad above, you are gonna wax your opponent.

That is what I call "broken". Nothing is impossible to beat. Broken is just very, very difficult to beat.

[Mike the Pike]

I am now firmly on the line of thinking that no list can save you no formation or asset/stratagem truly breaks the game. at the end of the day it all comes down to dice and how you maneuver a good list helps and great combos help out as well... At the end of the day a 1 is a 1 and a 6 is a 6 roll well and you will crush your opponent roll badly and you can't win no matter how good your list is..

Is that why you are playing with your Grot army so often these days

They only need 6s to hit in shooting. 5s to hit in Assault. Surely with superior tactics they can overcome anyone.

[Admiral-Badruck]

Both the Tactical Marines and got army examples are have nothing to do with with this discussion I did not say Powerful units could be taken out by crap units I am saying that ever list that is well built can be competitive if as for the 5 Tact squads.... do they have transports? why are they starting 6 feet away? sound like some one is playing like a moron and not playing to win... I did not say people the play like morons can pull a win just that an "over powered list is not going to win you every game... as for the `marine Shoe box of doom... shoot it with a bright lance it is dead.. now move on.

[Primarch]

Why does this seem like the Ruckster is trying to justify taking any army he wants?

In a way I agree that the idea of "broken" units is kind of wrong. In any dex there will be units who are, point for point, more efficient or more powerful than their counterparts (e.g. ork boyz are very efficient as a troops choice). There are units who, without the correct counter in place, will eat you alive (e.g. Thunderwolves fear vindicators and other S10 weapons but laugh at nearly everything else). And then you have force multipliers, usually spamming effective units to dominate the board. (e.g. 1 squad of IG veterans in a chimera is nothing to worry about. A table full of them is just downright nasty).

I think, more than anything, this all comes down to play style.
A) Some people just play with what they have because they dont have anything else yet.
B) Others bring a fun, theme army (DLord's heard of Chaos Spawn for example).
C) Some people try to bring a balanced list that covers all their bases.
D) And finally some people always try to bring the hardest list they can.

It has been many years since I have fallen into category A, but I have armies that fit into B (my assault squad Ravenguard), C (My Crimson Fists who are also kind of B with the scout/veteran theme fitting their background) and D (Ragnar and friends in Land Raiders). Against some players I will favour one of these styles over another because I know they do. The Admiral gets a D or C list when he plays me.

Goatboy over on Bell of Lost Souls and a reknowned cheesey list builder had this to say in a recent article:

I might be known as a WAAC gamer/Tough list builder/mean ole SOB - but I don't hate comp. I see Comp as just another avenue for playing the game.

To better explain lets think of it this way - when I get down to the shop, friends house, or tournament I come with multiple lists to try out and play. I start the game by asking my opponent what kind of game they want to play. Do they want to test versus an extremely aggressive tournament list? Would they rather play something goofy and fun? Do they want to fight a themed list? I consider the type of list I play just as much as I consider the amount of points I plan to throw down with.

So, where do you fit on the scale? Are you a B or a D?

[Spevna]

I'm a B through and through.

m_i_j is right in that that some units are seemingly broken. The Admiral is right in that one unit does not an army make. There is a counter for everything. Whether or not you included it in your army is another matter altogether.

[me_in_japan]

I agree that certain units in codex A can reasonably be expected to be better than their equivalent in codex B, with Ork boyz being a good example of an extremely good troops unit. Where this logic falls down somewhat is when the remainder of the codex fails to redress the balance. Taking a codex as a whole, it should balance out against (ideally) any other codex. If one compares the ork dex against the eldar dex, while both clearly have their advantages over the other, the eldar dex really, really struggles to deal with a fairly standard ork army build. (this discussion has been had before, but can anyone build an eldar army that they are confident can take out a take-all-comers ork army without unusually lucky dice rolling? And, can that same eldar list take out space marines, too? I say it cant be done.)

oh, and badruck, for what it's worth. The brightlance that is shooting at the caestus has a range of 48". its being fired by a guardian with a BS of 3. assuming it started exactly as far away as possible, it has exactly 2 shots to take out the caestus before it gets assaulted. 1 shot if the caestus decides to waste its meltashot on it.

to destroy a caestus, one needs a 5 or a 6. thats a 1 in 3 chance. thus, one needs 3 penetrating hits to achieve this. to get those 3 penetrating hits, a brightlance needs to roll a 5+. again, thats 1 in 3. to score the hits at all, one needs to roll a 4+ at BS3. thats a 1 in 2 chance. all together, that makes a 1 in 18 chance of a brightlance killing a caestus assault shoebox in one shot. I'm not liking those odds...

Oh, and thats not including the 4+ cover save the caestus gets in its first turn for moving flat out.

conversely, for the caestus to destroy its target of choice, it merely has to move flat out, move a bit to get right up the ass of its target, then disgorge it's contents all over said target. Or not, and just shoot it with the melta splat of death. (1 in 3 chance of hit, if miss, BS 4 and 5" blast mean a hit is very likely. Assuming it's within 9" of target (and it will be, cos its very fast) thats 2D6 (avg 7) plus 8. Thats an average of AP15, which will wax anything.

And yes, I know a direct comparison of the caestus and a brightlance guardian is daft, as their points difference is huge, but the madmiral has been suggesting each codex can deal with any units in any other codex, and proposed the brightlance as the solution to the caestus assault box. My point is, such a solution does not exist in take all comers eldar list, and if it can be found, it certainly aint the brightlance.

[me_in_japan]

oh, and Im a C/D, and occasional B.

When I bring a D, i expect a decent competition. However, if i play against orks, I can bring as much D as i like, and still get butchered, regardless of dice. This, I call broken. If you think you can do better, you are welcome to borrow my eldar for the day - just send me your list and Ill bring it along.

[Primarch]

@MiJ - Seriously? Guardians vs Caestus?

I did a quick count of all the times the phrase Broken has been used in the context of "Unit X is broken." I read all the entries and ignored the ones saying not broken, or my model is broken because I dropped it etc.

Guess who's name is filling the number 1 spot?


And it isn't MiJ

[Seneschal]

I'm always a B/C, and that's "always both", not one or the other.

I used to be a hardcore win-at-all-costs player, but frankly I find it more fun and rewarding to play in a friendlier way.


As for the Caestus, I agree that it looks very good, but the rules for it ARE covered in giant "experimental" stamps. I imagine it'll get toned down a bit when it actually makes its way into an IA book.