Badruck Tired of Hearing That's Over Powered or Broken

[Admiral-Badruck]

You realize that that letting me read the Eldar Dex and prep for a battle with the Orks will make me a master of them... and give you no room to run and hide when ever I see them coming... But if you are KOOL wif Dat I will take Da challenge...

[me_in_japan]

aint nothing stopping you from reading the eldar dex as it is, mate. In fact, I had assumed you had already read it, since youve spent several posts recently stating how any eldar player worth his salt should be able to beat the orks. I certainly hope you werent making comments like that without actually having a halfway working knowledge of the codex in question...


Anyway, righty-ho, you have accepted my challenge.

RIght.

Is 1750 pts ok for you? If you have any questions about what models I do and dont have, just ask. I can do you a comprehensive list, if youd prefer the whole secrecy side of things. As for the orks, I'll just assume you have several hundred of everything and go from there, ok?

also, when/where is good for you to play?

[Admiral-Badruck]

1500 is seem to be the most fair IMHORKO

This is an exhibition of what the codex is capable of doing so if I do not have it Proxy it... if you do not have it I will do the same.

Just to be Clear we are not taking FW stuff or White Dwarf stuff Right? just normal Codex stuff in a Normal 40k scenario right?

as for reading the Eldar dex I looked through it lots of times but I have never really looked a points values... I am already getting a picture of what is good and bad... the upgrades are a bit pricey... but the basic cost of things is not that bad really... I reckon right now the real life money price of models is the biggest challenge to the army. Hardly any plastics in the army make it very much out of the range of most hobby goers that are just starting out.

I am very keen to see what I can do to "break" this Codex...

as for the when you and I have been playing 40k for years with these armies I played Eldar are few times in RT days and like twice in the days of 2nd ed... but I have never used them in a game of 4th or 5th ed... I reckon it will take me a good month to get ready... I think we can meet for battle at the next Kuwana game... Phil runs... we can get a very big crowd to see who is the best of the best... public defeat...

[me_in_japan]

1500 pts - ok dokey.

No FW stuff and no WD stuff - OK.

No, absolutely no proxying. This is a test of what the codex can do in real life, not in "if i had a bajillion pounds I would buy ~~~"

For example, for 50pts, a D cannon isnt bad. For 150 pts, three D cannon is damn good.

For 60 quid? three D cannon is crap.

The exception to this is special characters. One phoenix lord costs (financially) much the same as another, and its just personal choice which ones I bought. If you feel a pressing need to include Baharoth or Asurmen in your army then feel free.

Also stuff like my Autarch model has wings - you dont need to give him these if you dont fancy. You dont have to play exactly wysiwig.

As for timing, in a month or so seems good to me. I'm making this game my priority as of now, in terms of gaming. Obviously work and family life will, as always, get in the way, but hopefully we can find a mutually amenable time soonish.

Oh, one final thing: In the runnup to this game you have to talk like an eldar. Ill talk like an ork, if you like

[Admiral-Badruck]

hold on you have not got half the model I want to use.. sorry man but My orks were not free I have all the things I need and if I do not have the money an I still want to play it I make it out of something else.. no deal with out full range of models it is just will not work...... when I do my Eldar I will make them all out of plastic models there will be no metal models it the army... not my fault you would rather spend your money on titans and cobras instead of getting the models you need to win...games... there is nothing in any of the tournament rules that says you cant proxy hell Miguel had a full army of proxy models and Spevena Hand built a large portion of his army... including guns... Both armies looked good and were spot on for size and knowing what what the models were and what they were packing... My mission is to de bunk the "codex beat me mentality"
If I can't take the units I want out of the Eldar codex then my point will not be proven... I have every unit worth taking in the Ork Dex and nearly every unit worth taking form the SM dex.. I did not pay that much for them last time I checked a Titan is about 20,000 yen and with that you could have gotten any number of basic Plastic troops models to convert into what ever models you need...I may have to give all my good ork units to sam for a few months until we play good luck wining with what I leave you...

[Primarch]

As much as it pains me to agree with Badruck (and it pains me A LOT!!!), he does have a point in that he said Eldar can beat Orks rather than "The Eldar army that Dave has can beat Orks." If it could, MiJ's army would already have beaten them.

At the same time, it is a LOT easier to scratch build ork vehicles than Eldar ones. For example Badruck has several Battlewagons, but only 1 is the actual model, the other 2 are converted from Tamiya kits. Likewise with some of his Killa Kans. Try finding a WWII Tamiya kit that you can change into a Wave Serpent. Similarly, MiJ's Superheavies are awesome, forgeworld models which cost a lot rather than being pieces of polystyrene and yoghurt pots. Again, Eldar stuff is hard to convert and scratchbuild.

MiJ has the army that he wants, which is fine, but it isnt necessarily the army that is going to be suited to the challenge at hand. Everytime this topic has reared its head, the armylists other people recommend are not the same as the ones MiJ can field.

IMHO proxying for this game shouldn't be a problem, though Badrucks attitude may be.

[Colonel Voss]

While I agree with Primes points, however I do want to add in a few other things.

Even if we are talking about building an army, a lot of people can't afford the time, space and/or money to build such a vast army as Badruck has. For most people it comes down to fielding the army that you can put together over the army that is best beating army X. MiJ, for right or wrong has certain units that he has put into his army. That's what he has and what he can make do with.

As Prim pointed out, you can't really scratch build eldar and some people don't want to do the scratch building. Plus, some people don't have the penchant for doing so. I do not consider this a valid argument. I'd also love to see how you could make all of those aspect warriors from guardians when most of them have very different weapon builds. Sounds fishy to me.

As for the titans, well we do play apocalypse so having some apoc forces makes them very legitimate purchases. If MiJ didn't have those, then Baddy would gripe about how he didn't have anything for apoc.

Last all this wind from Badruck makes me think that this challenge just isn't right. There is more to 40k than beating the orks (though our dear admiral would probably think otherwise, orky that he is ) such as tournaments and apocalypse that he is neglecting in his arguments.

Therefore, I consider the true challenge to prove the admirals point would be this (and I know both of them won't accept but oh well, it would be a hoot to watch!);

For the next Nagoyahammer, Admiral Badruck builds his own eldar army and MiJ builds an ork army. Then we can watch which army does better throughout the tournament. And for a bonus, the last game is a grudge match feature event between these too mighty fanatics of Warhammer 40,000!

[Spevna]

All this back and forth can be summarised in a few points;

The Admiral thinks that Orks can be beaten with a properly tooled up Eldar army.
M_I_J thinks that the Orks can't be beaten with Eldar (or only with great, great difficulty).
The Admiral wants an "anything in the codex goes" challenge.
M_I_J wants a game with what models he has.


The whole argument of what a codex can do in "real life" isn't a valid one as it's complete case by case. I would consider the D-Cannons a better investment than the Titan as I would have a far greater chance of using the cannons AND they are a lot cheaper than the titan. Others would disagree.

The only way you will get a fair test of what either codex is capable of is by taking what you want and playing a best of three (to account for dice). Don't put limitations as you are just handicapping yourself and providing a ready made excuse for losing.

[Primarch]

Best of 3 sounds like a good idea.

Another thing to consider is the issue of terrain. One thing I have noticed in playing the Ruckster is that nearly all of his terrain works to block line of site, but doesnt really slow you down if you get into assault range.
Try playing against orks where they have to assault your troops on the 3rd floor of a building and see how that goes. Playing in 3 dimensions means that A) Deathrollers cannot wipe you off the table. B) Shooting units get the opportunity to shoot something before they get assaulted. C) Second turn, full army assaults are almost impossible to get off. D) Cover saves.
I'm not saying that the Admiral wins because of the terrain, but for a fragile army like Eldar which focus a lot on manouvering and positioning it makes sense that the terrain will have an impact on how well they perform.

[Spevna]

Yep, I reckon so too. The regular 25% but with 3+ floors. That way both armies can take advantage. LOS would be blocked and the more fragile guys could avoid otherwise unavoidable early assaults.