NagoyaHammer 2020 - May 9th - Planning the 40K Day.

[Jye Nicolson]

*edit* After re-reading the Ynnari rules, it seems that it's very, very difficult to have a mixed force. Which seems really counter productive, since the whole point of Ynnari is mixing the eldar? I'd appreciate people's input on this, but as I understand it, if I want a mixed force, I'd basically have to choose an entire detachment of Crafties, a detachment of Dark Eldar, a detachment of Harleys and the aforementioned tiny detachment of Corsairs. And then have each one led by Yvraine, the Visarch, and the Yncarne. Which is quite the tax, and pretty much impossible at any reasonable points value.

So, is that right? Can the Ynnari only exist as a mixed-race faction at really high points values? Or am I misunderstanding?

I think that's correct, though Psychic Awakening did reduce them to 80 + 115 + 280 points, so...475 worth of HQ. Do Aeldari have any really cheap Elites to fill out Vanguard detachments maybe?

I'm not really sure of what you lose if you try to run Aeldari as soup without Ynnari - do they have "all your army must be <SUBFACTION>" like Marines?

edit: you could try dropping your least favourite of the three and run batallion + whatever with Yvraine, Vysarch and a cheap psyker or something? That might get your HQ tax down to ~250?

[me_in_japan]

*edit* After re-reading the Ynnari rules, it seems that it's very, very difficult to have a mixed force. Which seems really counter productive, since the whole point of Ynnari is mixing the eldar? I'd appreciate people's input on this, but as I understand it, if I want a mixed force, I'd basically have to choose an entire detachment of Crafties, a detachment of Dark Eldar, a detachment of Harleys and the aforementioned tiny detachment of Corsairs. And then have each one led by Yvraine, the Visarch, and the Yncarne. Which is quite the tax, and pretty much impossible at any reasonable points value.

So, is that right? Can the Ynnari only exist as a mixed-race faction at really high points values? Or am I misunderstanding?

I think that's correct, though Psychic Awakening did reduce them to 80 + 115 + 280 points, so...475 worth of HQ. Do Aeldari have any really cheap Elites to fill out Vanguard detachments maybe?

I'm not really sure of what you lose if you try to run Aeldari as soup without Ynnari - do they have "all your army must be <SUBFACTION>" like Marines?

edit: you could try dropping your least favourite of the three and run batallion + whatever with Yvraine, Vysarch and a cheap psyker or something? That might get your HQ tax down to ~250?

but I wanna have every flavour beans

Ah well, thanks for clearing that up for me, though. I feared as much. Still, I suppose now I can focus on building single faction lists. On that note, since we may end up playing both 500 and 1000pt games, would anybody mind overmuch if I had, say Crafties for game 1 and (woefully underflavoured) Ynnari for game 2, or something like that? Change up me armies between games, I mean.

I'm not really sure of what you lose if you try to run Aeldari as soup without Ynnari - do they have "all your army must be <SUBFACTION>" like Marines?

aye, they have exactly that. It's not enough to be eldar, you have to be the right kind of eldar, these days. Can't have the riffraff mixing with the nobility, Isha forbid

[Jye Nicolson]

but I wanna have every flavour beans

Ah well, thanks for clearing that up for me, though. I feared as much. Still, I suppose now I can focus on building single faction lists. On that note, since we may end up playing both 500 and 1000pt games, would anybody mind overmuch if I had, say Crafties for game 1 and (woefully underflavoured) Ynnari for game 2, or something like that? Change up me armies between games, I mean.

At the very least I don't think the bigger list should have to be a superset of the smaller list *if* CP are still player based. The bigger lists would be better integrated but have 3 less CP, seems fair.

That does raise a question though - how do the little lists interact? If my partner and I both play the same Marine chapter, do our auras cross-buff? Can we take the same unique character twice? Can we take four total of some busted unit because we're doing 2xRule of Two rather than 1xRule of Three?

These should be easy to handle but would be good to figure out - or just make a rule the pair factions have to be different

[Konrad]

I like the idea of buddying up before the games and planning lists together. That made for a very fun experience last time we did it, and also for more balanced games, as armies had less chance of being paired with something that just didnt work for them. And no, randomness does not equal fun...

And trash talking the Panzeez before da big show iz alwayz gud fun.

and this year I'm even (strongly) considering bringing twinkle pixies! With spangly diamonds and eeeeeverything!

And they'll chop the faces off yer stinkin' orkses, too, all the while leaping merrilly and quipping. Quipping, I say!

Anyway, back to the point in question: Can I do a mixed force or not? My paintbrushes are waiting!

A "kwip" you up alongside yer pointy head iz what yer gettin'. "Twinkle Pixes"? Which ones are they? The whole Ynarrlaeldardruhkari smorgasbord seems to fit that particular description.

[Konrad]

but I wanna have every flavour beans

Ah well, thanks for clearing that up for me, though. I feared as much. Still, I suppose now I can focus on building single faction lists. On that note, since we may end up playing both 500 and 1000pt games, would anybody mind overmuch if I had, say Crafties for game 1 and (woefully underflavoured) Ynnari for game 2, or something like that? Change up me armies between games, I mean.

At the very least I don't think the bigger list should have to be a superset of the smaller list *if* CP are still player based. The bigger lists would be better integrated but have 3 less CP, seems fair.

Yeah, that sounds right about the big list not being a subset of the small list. But, I'm not too keen on switching lists for each game. Make your choice and stick by your guns I say.
[/quote]
That does raise a question though - how do the little lists interact? If my partner and I both play the same Marine chapter, do our auras cross-buff? Can we take the same unique character twice? Can we take four total of some busted unit because we're doing 2xRule of Two rather than 1xRule of Three?

These should be easy to handle but would be good to figure out - or just make a rule the pair factions have to be different
[/quote]

I think in the past with the old edition, we had all those "Battle Brothers" and "Come the Apocalypse" rules for determining all that. My take is if you are playing identical chapters/craftworlds/clanz etc, it's just one big army, so I'd say treat it like one army with 2 players. If they are different factions, it all separates itself naturally, via keywords, I think?

[Jye Nicolson]

I think in the past with the old edition, we had all those "Battle Brothers" and "Come the Apocalypse" rules for determining all that. My take is if you are playing identical chapters/craftworlds/clanz etc, it's just one big army, so I'd say treat it like one army with 2 players. If they are different factions, it all separates itself naturally, via keywords, I think?

Yeah, the case of different factions (or even different subfactions) is easy, I'm just mildly concerned that two of the *same* subfaction would be dramatically better thanks getting all the aura buffs at "half price" (eg one side brings the Chapter Master, the other the Master of Sanctity, no need to pay for both buffs on both sides).

This may not be a real concern if there's not enough players of any one faction to make a team likely, especially if nobody is meta enough to say deliberately organise a double Iron Fists force ahead of time (though if I should start buying tanks let me know). Or if I'm wrong and the value of having two half-armies that excel at different things equals or betters efficient cross-buffing - I've been reading a lot about 40k on the internet the last couple of months but I don't actually know much about the game in a practical sense

[Primarch]

From the first post.

Players' special rules will NOT affect their partners, even if they share keywords.

So you can't pool your CP and activate abilities for everyone on your team in one go.

[Karantu]

Here are my thoughts on the things people have been talking about.

Pairings:
I think a doubles tournament would be fun since both random pairing (for the whole tournament) and registering as a pair has downsides we could have people choose to either register as a pair or to go for a random partner that we could introduce them to before the actual tournament so that they can talk about lists which should hopefully reduce the advantage or registering as a pair. That way people would register even if they don't have anyone to pair up with and still be able to enjoy the event. Compared to having a new partner every game, people won't be able to mingle as much but it would allow people prepare for the tournament and thus have a reason to interact with each other before the actual tournament.

Auras/special rules/factions/Stratagems/etc:
In order to make it fair for people who can't or don't want to double down on the same faction, anything that buffs allied units should only buff your army not your partner's regardless of keywords. Things like exploding vehicles and psykers should effect anyone as per usual though. Stratagems and psychic on the other hand should be limited to each player so both players could use the once per phase re-roll Stratagem in the same phase. However, debuffs with the same name should not be able to stack on the same enemy unit even when when applied by different player's units. e.g. If there are two players on one team who are playing Tyranids and they both use the psychic power The Horror on the same enemy unit, it should not stack resulting in a -2 to hit and only be a -1 to hit. This still leaves some room for cheesing debuffs but I hope people act in good faith without needing an explicit rule to prevent heinous to hit or leadership debuffs

CP:
Each player should only be able to use CP from their own pool and to prevent an abundance of CP we could have it so that the 3 CP you get for being battleforged is shared between the pair.

Rule of 3:
Since each player will only be fielding either 500 or 750 points, they should adhere to the rule of 2 for both the number of detachments as well as non-troop datasheets. Additionally in order to spam where both players bring 4 of a particularly powerful units, we could implement the rule of 3 for non-troop datasheets across both armies since they will be able to plan their lists beforehand.

Warlords, Relics:
Each player should be able to pick warlord traits and relics as per usual since they shouldn't affect their allies. Debuff stacking should be handled as mentioned in the bit about Auras/etc. If the scoring conditions of the missions are written to deal with there being two warlords per team this shouldn't be a problem either.

If everyone participating understands that the objective of this "tournament" is for people to hang out and make new friends, they should be able to understand that there will be some compromises they will have to make in list building and while playing, to make the whole event a fun for everyone involved. This includes not being as suited to this format as others but I hope people are willing to make that sacrifice to enjoy the event.

[Jye Nicolson]

That all sounds good to me! Edit: I wouldn't share the 3cp though. Nothing else is being shared so you'll need your (almost certainly 8) CP for your own stuff. Plus it gives a team a 3cp edge against a solo player, who will p4obably have some flashier models.

[Konrad]

From the first post.

Players' special rules will NOT affect their partners, even if they share keywords.

So you can't pool your CP and activate abilities for everyone on your team in one go.

Yeah. Easy enough. Let's not overthink this. You could still get around the "rule of two". But with I bet at 500 or 750 pts you and your partner won't really be able to maximize those 4 uber units as well as a 1000-1500 pt solo player could his two uber units, so maybe evens out?