A thread to discuss Mordheim

[Primarch]

Recently Konrad has been dropping a few hints that he would like to play a Mordheim campaign.

What would be really fun would be an old school Mordhiem campaign!

(I never said the hints were subtle).

In theory, I have no problem playing a Mordheim campaign, but I think that it is something worth discussing first as there are a few issues that I can see with the game itself and the idea of a campaign in our group.

Rules
First and foremost, everyone needs to know which set of rules we would be using and have the same version of them. This includes which warbands are allowed and which aren't. There is a lot of fanmade content out there and numerous rehashes, house rules and variants.

Based on my past experience with the game, there are some things from the initial game that need to be adjusted to make it playable.
*Slings are generally regarded as being A) One of the best ranged weapons in the game, and B) One of the cheapest weapons in the game. This makes it easy for certain warbands (Skaven) to spam them in vast numbers.
*Duel-wielding melee weapons is very powerful, especially when combined with a hero. In my last game, Konrad's duel-wielding vampire lord took out half of my warband single-handed. (Yes, I realize that is a bit of a misnomer).
*Armour doesn't do a lot for its cost. Now, I don't want to see any 2+ rerollable saves, armour should be a small buff, but it is very easy to bypass if you have Strength 4 or more.
*Some skills are just better than others and using them across your warband is too easy.
Now, you may disagree with my opinions, but personally those are issues I would like to see discussed before any games are played.

Campaign
Let's be honest and say that our group has never really done well with more traditional style campaigns. I think the current 40K campaigns have done well because they seem to be personal to your army, your opponent doesn't even need to be a part of the campaign. Mordheim is a bit more involved and that can lead to issues ensuring that games get played.

Minimum number of players.
Having enough players join in is important to making a campaign fun. I think 4 people is really a minimum, just to give some variety in the warbands you play against. It can be fun to have a group of arch-rivals, but playing the same game over and over gets dull.
Not only do you need a minimum number of players, those players need to actively turn up and play regularly. Sure, there will be games you cannot attend because of family or work, that can't be helped, but a commitment to playing through the campaign is important. With only one gaming day a month in many cases, playing just one system can be hard work for the more easily distracted members of our group. (I'm including myself here). Joining the campaign means commiting to a certain level of involvement.
Finally, there is the issue of terrain. Mordheim needs a fair bit of it, and ideally, a lot of it. Generic fantasy terrain works ok, but Mordheim does have a certain aesthetic. Ruined buildings with makeshift walkways between them, and some options for vertical movement add a lot to the game. There is a tendency in our club for a couple of players to supply all of the terrain, which isn't always fair or convenient. Everyone should be able to contribute something. This isn't a rant specific to Mordheim though.

Other concerns
A lot of the old Mordheim minis are long out of print or hard to get hold of. There are some nice models from Frostgrave and other makers that can fill the gaps, but GW hasn't released new Empire models in a while, so the core warbands aren't something everyone will have access to without some shopping.
I'd also suggest running things by the Japanese half of the club. We don't play with them anywhere near enough. I know it is something that I need to work on more myself.

So that is about it I think. Any thoughts, agreements, disagreements, hate-filled comments about my personality? Post them below.

[Balloonacorn]

I am a big fan of the game.

Check out this video on a Mordheim tournament held last year. I particularly like the kitbashing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm6ZdY1VwN0

[Balloonacorn]

As a first step, most importantly would be which warbands would be allowed. Rules will change and we can always implement house rules but speaking for myself, I don't have a warband and need to find, kit bash, order from Etsy to get a good looking and thematic band. This takes time. After that I need to comment about how I don't have time to paint them.

[Konrad]

Cool! I did not actually expect anyone to chime in one this!

Prim raises good points.

Rules-wise, there are fixes published for the Dual-Wield/Armor/Sling problems out there.

Allowed Warbands- There are sooooo many out there, all in various degrees of official acceptance. As I recall it was the Shadow Elves and Carnival of Chaos that were the two top banned lists.

Skills balance- True, it leads to a condition called the "Cookie Cutter Warband". One Averlander Human Mercenary Warband will end up pretty much the same as another. Not sure if there are fixes, or even if it is a problem in our situation. Any Mordheimery we might get up to won't result in 3 identical Averlander Warbands in the group.

Number of players- Yeah...I doubt there is that much interest. So many games, so little time. Most of us do one game day a month, so a proper campaign is a big investment of nerd-time.

And frankly Frostgrave does a lot of what Mordheim does and does it better. If you like that Old World Grimdark Fantasy, "Darkest Dungeon" has it in spades without all the complications of a skirmish campaign.
I love the old games out of nostalgia, mostly. There is something about the old GW "I go/You go/Move/Shoot/HTH/Recover rhythm that is so comforting. Like a favorite t-shirt or old pair of jeans.

And yeah, not related to Mordheim, but we really do sort of split into gaijin/Japanese games. I totally get it. We play to relax, and it is tough to take it easy when half the game is spent trying to understand intricate game rules in a foreign language. My Japanese sucks and even playing with Itakura, who's English is actually pretty good as long as he is reading, can be a struggle. Reminds me, I need to run the Gorkamorka Rulebook through DeepL one of these days for Ono san.

@Ballooncorn-I'll take a look at that video. In the old days "Tom's Boring Mordheim Forum" was the go-to site for all things Mordheim. Work filter won't let me link.
Anyone up for a one-off game, give me a shout! I have about half a table of terrain, a Vampire Warband and could easily cobble together some Possessed and Amazons.

[Konrad]

Here are 3 "Dual-Wielding / Armour Fixing Options" that were put out by Specialist Games (sort of.... long story if I remember). I can't find links to the originals. These are cut-and-pasted from "The Long Boring Dual-Wield Thread" at "Toms Boring Mordheim Forum. They all look at it a different way and each have their merits.
We had a "House Rules of the Damned" back in the day. I think we nerfed slings and Lucky Charms in addition to using "Option A" I think. I'll have to dig around the dusty and forbidden tomes of Mordheim lore.

OPTION A. http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/mor ... sage/56537

i. Page 35, "Fighting with two weapons". Add the line "Due to the difficulty in fighting with more than one weapon, any warrior attempting to do so suffers a -1 penalty to hit with both weapons. A warrior using a pistol in hand-to-hand combat is exempt from this penalty."

ii. Page 122, New Combat Skill "Maniac Warrior: The Warrior is adept at fighting with a weapon in each hand. He may ignore the -1 to hit penalty that such practice normally incurs." Johann The Knife, Bertha Bestraufung and Veskit should all be granted the "Maniac Warrior" skill.

iii. Page 51, under Shield. Add the line. "In addition to this save, a warrior armed with a shield and a hand-weapon has a basic save of 5+ (or may add +2 to his armour save if other armour is worn). Mounted models may not gain this benefit. Hand weapons are defined as hammers, staffs, maces, clubs, axes, swords, morning stars and spears. Variants such as rapiers or Dwarf axes are
also included.

Page 51, under Buckler. Add the line "In addition to this, a warrior armed with a buckler and a hand-weapon has a basic save of 6+ (or may add +1 to his armour save if other armour is worn).

iv. Page 50, under "Light Armour" add "In addition the warrior gains a 6+ save against Serious Injury during the post-battle phase. Treat a successful save exactly as if the warrior had received the "Full Recovery" result. He may not explore, trade nor take part in any other post-battle activities".

v. Page 50, under "Heavy Armour" add "In addition the warrior gains a 5+ save against Serious Injury during the post-battle phase. Treat a successful save exactly as if the warrior had received the "Full Recovery" result. He may not explore, trade nor take part in any other post-battle activities".

vi. Page 51, under "Ithilmar Armour" add "In addition the warrior gains a 5+ save against Serious Injury during the post-battle phase. Treat a successful save exactly as if the warrior had received the "Full Recovery" result. He may not explore, trade nor take part in any other post-battle activities".

vii. Page 51, under "Gromril Armour" add "In addition the warrior gains a 4+ save against Serious Injury during the post-battle phase. Treat a successful save exactly as if the warrior had received the "Full Recovery" result. He may not explore, trade nor take part in any other post-battle activities".

viii. MH Annual 2002, Page 16, under "Toughened Leathers", replace the entire Special Rules text with the line: " A warrior wearing toughened leathers gains a 6+ save against Serious Injury during the post-battle phase. Treat a successful save exactly as if the warrior had received the "Full Recovery" result. He may not explore, trade nor take part in any other post-battle activities. Toughened Leathers are classified as Armour and may be worn by Henchmen"

OPTION B. http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/mor ... sage/56539

i. Page 35, "Fighting with two weapons". Add the line "Due to the difficulty in fighting with more than one weapon, any warrior attempting to do so suffers a -1 penalty to hit with both weapons. A warrior using a pistol in hand-to-hand combat is exempt from this penalty."

ii. Page 122, New Combat Skill "Maniac Warrior: The Warrior is adept at fighting with a weapon in each hand. He may ignore the -1 to hit penalty that such practice normally incurs."

iii. Replace the existing cost, movement penalty, rarity and armour saves with the following:
- Light Armour: 6+ save , no -1M with shield, common, (10GC)
- Medium Armour: 5+ save, no -1M with shield, common, (20GC)
- Full Armour: 4+ save, -1M with shield, rare 8, (50GC)
- Ithilmar: 4+, no -1M with shield, rare 11 (90GC)
- Gromril: 4+, no -1M with shield, rare 11, Special Rule: "Death Defying: A warrior that is wearing Gromril armour gains a 4+ save against Serious Injury during the post-battle phase. Treat a successful save exactly as if the warrior had received the "Full Recovery" result (150GC).
Medium, Full, Ithilmar & Gromril Armour are all types of Heavy Armour.

OPTION C. http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/mor ... sage/56538

i. Page 35, "Fighting with two weapons". Add the line "Due to the difficulty in fighting with more than one weapon, any warrior attempting to do so suffers a -1 penalty to hit with both weapons. A warrior using a pistol in hand-to-hand combat is exempt from this penalty."

ii. Page 122, New Combat Skill "Maniac Warrior: The Warrior is adept at fighting with a weapon in each hand. He may ignore the -1 to hit penalty that such practice normally incurs.."

iii. Page 51, under Shield. Add the line. "In addition to this save, a warrior armed with a shield and a hand-weapon has a basic save of 5+ (or may add +2 to his armour save if other armour is worn). Mounted models may not gain this benefit. Hand weapons are defined as hammers, staffs, maces, clubs, axes, swords, morning stars and spears. Variants such as rapiers or Dwarf axes are also included.

Page 51, under Buckler. Add the line "In addition to this, a warrior armed with a buckler and a hand-weapon has a basic save of 6+ (or may add +1 to his armour save if other armour is worn).

iv. Page 32 & p.167. Critical Hits Chart. Under result 5-6 "Master Strike!" remove the line "The attack ignores all armour saves"

Page 160. Optional Missile Critical Hits Chart. Under result 5-6 "Master Shot"
remove the line "There is no armour save"

Page 161. Optional Bladed Weapon Critical Hits Chart. Under result 5-6
"Sliced!" remove the words "ignores armour saves"[/size]

[Primarch]

I quite like the look of option B. It makes armour less of a penalty, but not too overpowered.

As I mentioned terrain in my first post, I thought it might be beneficial to share some useful tutorial videos.

https://www.youtube.com/c/DevsDice?app=desktop

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa4VfD ... Tn6Vyc0U1A

Both of these are informative and have some great ideas for how to build terrain for Mordheim and other projects.

[Konrad]

Option "B" is probably my favorite too. By adjusting the cost, you can field armored fighters in one-off games and it gets them into the campaign quickly.