Allying your allies with allies as you ally with yourself

[Primarch]

If any of you have been following the GW Digital Releases (or been browsing BoLS or one of the other major forums), you might have seen GW's latest release, The Tau Fireblade Support Cadre.

This release allows you to take 6 Broadsides and a Riptide (and only those units) as an additional ally. Originally designed as an Apocalypse formation it is now available in regular 40K if you want. By taking this formation, all of the units in it get Tank Hunter and Preferred Enemy: Marines according to what BoLS just posted up. They don't count towards your allied detachment limit, but function as an ally.
So it is now possible to take the following combo:
1 Core Marine Detachment
1 Allied Detachment of your choice
1 Allied Inquisition Detachment
1 Allied Tau Fireblade Support Cadre
Of course, it will be a ton of points, but it is going to start getting tough to track as this is just the first one GW are releasing. With the upcoming Diet-Apocalypse supplement promising that you can add Super Heavies to standard games and the also upcoming siege supplement adding fortifications all over the place, you could be looking at needing 7 books (Rules, Core codex, 3 allied books, Diet-Apoc, siege) just for one game. Whilst I appreciate that more options can be a cool thing, that tally does seem pretty overwhelming. The additional digital releases seem to be pouring out with special characters getting their own book - Be'Lakor was the first, there are hints that Cypher is next - requiring even more stuff to be brought along.
For me, I'm not overly enthused about the allies rules to begin with, I can see them being good if you want to build a themed force, but open to a lot of abuse by spamming the best units from each book if you so wish. The extra allies in the form of the Inquistion and now the Formations just don't do it for me.

So, what do you think about the allies rules and the ever growing list of things you can ally with?

[Spevna]

I think it is nice to have the option to do that kind of stuff if one is so inclined, but it isn't the kind of game I would ever want to be involved in. It would be too big and too power gamer-ish for me.

As far as allies go, I'm of the opinion that if there isn't a fluffy reason for them to be together, they shouldn't be together. But again, that is just how I like to play, not how I expect everyone too.

[Miguelsan]

The cynical person in me says that if GW wants to go the way of microtransactions to force players to have the latest shinny there are Pirate Bays and printers for this type of stuff.

Game wise as long as I have a fair warning what's expected on a given game I think this non-FOC stuff is ok or even the new bring a Superheavy to the slaughter too! As I said before if Prim wants to put special rules on NH I'm cool with it, it's not like if he was going to do it 5 minutes into the 1st game. What's not that cool is when somebody pops up digital rules that change the basic rules saying that they are official because he paid GW 4€ for the priviledge and this kind of behaivour by GW encourages abuse.

About allies, the concept is not bad and not new either. It's the stupid matrix that screws things. Necrons and Blood drinkers? Space Smurfs and Tau?

M.

[YellowStreak]

As far as allies go, I'm of the opinion that if there isn't a fluffy reason for them to be together, they shouldn't be together. But again, that is just how I like to play, not how I expect everyone too.

+1

[me_in_japan]

As wire all rules GW release, surely the only reasonable response is to shrug. Use em if you like, don't if you don't. It's nt like anybody around here plays on tournaments or anything other than pick-up games or Naghammer. For the former then surely what's acceptable an what isn't can be worked out with ones opponent beforehand, and for the latter it's Prim's call. If he says "y'all gotta have 3 flyers in your armies" then fine, it's his game. What GW say really has very little bearing on how I play. But, if they release extra rules for stuff, it does broaden my potential choice, and increased choice is generally a good thing in my opinion.

[Primarch_Vanguard]

Gw is just pouring these things out before Xmas. Coincidence? I think not. And it's just becoming a power unit slugfest for the win. I've been reading a lot of talk on what high level tournaments are going to do because everyone thinks it's broken now. A lot of common talk seems to be a need for smaller point games or armies having to fill their whole FOC before any allies or formations are taken. I couldn't agree more and will be trying out a next step, each army must take half it's FOC slots rounding up in order before taking any allies which must also do the same. Thus you must take 1 hq, then 2 troops, then one elite, one fast attack and then one heavy support before you can take anything else. Not sure if this will work but going to give it a whirl this weekend. While I have all the big nasty models, the game to me is just revolving around them fighting and the loser most liking having to concede because there is nothing left to fight it and win. Yes, I was surprised that I pulled off a win against an Eldar/grey knight force last weekend with my chaos/daemons in which he was able to build his force after knowing what I was bringing and I had a set force already built. The problem was that with two big walkers to my none, the game was balanced on just one thing, taking down the walkers. Which I did but it was really lucky. Not skillful at all, I jumped all I had into combat with one and he rolled enough ones to take it down but I mean, only a few rolls and it was luckyyyyyyyy! If I hadn't got that last one rolled, he would have gone on to destroy my army and there would have been nothing I could have done to prevent it. I don't think these data slates or escalation break the game, I think it became broken with the addition of all these 6 wound walkers. I think an FOC template and no five wound models and up is the way to go. And if it's a tournament, have an apoc game going for those that want to use them. It's about having fun and no one is holding a gun to our heads to follow a book produced by a company that is only concerned with selling product and not the game. Unfortunately now, I think this limits tournaments for a lot of people because they simply won't want to go with the new rules set. Hopefully those running these events will see it's broken and adjust fairly to it to keep the fun and the players in the game.

[Primarch]

As far as NagoyaHammer in May goes, there won't be any Lords of War slots or allies of any kind. As previously mentioned, fortifications will be pretty sparse as well. Even at 2000 points (or the rather silly 1999+1 points) it is still quite tough to fill all your slots. Most armies can fit 5000 points or more into one FOC. I think guard can get up to well over 20,000 without breaking a sweat. I'm interested in how other tournaments will handle things, but I can see Forge World unloading a pile of Eldar Revenant Titans this winter. (Whoever thought including that thing would make for a balanced game needs a kick in the head).

I'm not against using funky stuff in a game if I know it is coming (and my opponent has fair warning on my list as well), big toys are just as much fun as small ones, they just require a bit more care when you organise the game.

@PV - Are the guys in Yokkaichi still doing the look-at-your-list, write-their-list thing?

[Colonel Voss]

This whole thing comes accross as Whose on First, Whats on Second, and I don't know is on Third.

Talk about a huge headache and a good reason to shelve 40k for a while and focus on things that are a bit more interesting and not a money grab.

[me_in_japan]

It's about having fun and no one is holding a gun to our heads to follow a book produced by a company that is only concerned with selling product and not the game.

This.

I don't think we need to make blanket changes to FOC or balance or whatever. We just need to apply common sense to our games. When you build a list, try to imagine how your opponent will feel when you put it down in front of him. If the reaction is likely to be "oh crap, I'm screwed" then you should probably rethink your list.

[Admiral-Badruck]

Cool I can take what every want.