Is warhammer 40k dead?

[Spevna]

Prim made a comment in another thread that I'd feel better when a new eldar dex full of new shiny toys was released. In fact, the opposite is true - im dreading a new eldar dex, exactly because it will be full of shiny new toys, and they will look lovely, and I'll want them. But unless I'm willing to reverse my Spevna stance and once again drop offensively high amounts of cash on them, I won't be able to have them. When you can't keep up with the new releases, when you have to deny yourself all the cool new toys, the game becomes increasingly lackluster, simply because every new release is nothing more than another temptation to resist. It gets to the point where there's nothing to look forward to in the game anymore.

I've never understood this when it comes to players that already have a sizeable army. You have more than enough miniatures to play a variety of army styles. The only reason you might need the new shinies is that it would be difficult to be competitive without them. But that is not really an issue outside of tournament games. Most of us have pretty casual gaming styles so you could quite easily play without never having to buy another new mini. I haven't bought anything new from GW in over three years I reckon. Doesn't hamper my enjoyment of the game. I'm just happy with using what I have or, if the mood takes me, scouring eBay for the odd one or two oop or used minis here and there.

[me_in_japan]

Its not army building thats the issue for me. It's the fact that the new models will be better sculpts than the old ones. I'll want them because they'll look pretty. They will also be far more expensive than the old ones. Competitiveness doesn't come into it. if that was the only problem I'd just proxy like I do for my dark eldar. In fact, I largely proxy my dark eldar because the GW grotesques (and to a lesser degree the muncs) aren't very good sculpts. If they released a fun, flavorful eldar codex with really crappy sculpts accompanying it, I'd actually be less bothered. At least then I could go looking for alternative minis. Even then, though, the rules necessitate such numbers of models that even buying 3rd party alternatives is blooming expensive. It's such a lot of money for one game. Malifaux and warmachine don't cost anything like as much. (I appreciate that per mini they're all pretty much of a muchness, but the number required to play 40k is far higher than in those other two games.)

[Spevna]

Its not army building thats the issue for me. It's the fact that the new models will be better sculpts than the old ones. I'll want them because they'll look pretty. They will also be far more expensive than the old ones. Competitiveness doesn't come into it. if that was the only problem I'd just proxy like I do for my dark eldar. In fact, I largely proxy my dark eldar because the GW grotesques (and to a lesser degree the muncs) aren't very good sculpts. If they released a fun, flavorful eldar codex with really crappy sculpts accompanying it, I'd actually be less bothered. At least then I could go looking for alternative minis. Even then, though, the rules necessitate such numbers of models that even buying 3rd party alternatives is blooming expensive. It's such a lot of money for one game. Malifaux and warmachine don't cost anything like as much. (I appreciate that per mini they're all pretty much of a muchness, but the number required to play 40k is far higher than in those other two games.)

Fair points. But I will say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Your newer Dark Eldar army is nice but it doesn't have the charm or character of your older Eldar army in my opinion.

And as for needing more minis, just play smaller games or pay half points for a unit and take half the minis. If you are willing to accept my Imperisl Guard Storm Troopers as mercs, it would be rude of me not to let you take a half strength unit

[Primarch]

On the topic of using other rulesets (Spevna has suggested a few and AGP has mentioned Tomorrow's War a couple of times elsewhere), would it be a case of playing 40k with a different set of rules or using GW minis to play a totally different game?

For me, Warhammer 40,000 isn't just a rule set, it is a setting for the game to be in. I enjoy my Space Marines being what they are in the 40K fluff rather than just generic "Future Soldier in Future Armour" types. It may sound dumb, but that is as important to me, if not moreso than the rules themselves.

As for the alternatives suggested, Killzone looks fine for what it is, a small scale version of 40k. The rewrite I see as being unnecessary because I may as well stick with 5th rather than learn a whole new set of rules. I dont want the game to get any simpler, so whilst Fubar may be a fun game, I dont see it being a replacement for 40K, just another game to play alongside all the rest. Likewise, Tomorrow's War looks like a fun game, but would it work to recreate 40K or is it just a different way to use the plastic models I have?

At the end of the day, I am very content to keep playing 5th IF 6th ed isn't fun for me. The ideal situation would be if 6th ed simply clears up a few of the inconsistencies in 5th (making similar psychic powers work in the same way for example). I am pretty sure that that isnt going to be the case and that a whole lot will have been changed throughout the system. Some of it sounds good (Dropping out of the sky with a jump pack and smashing someone's teeth down their throat sounds fun), some ok (assault phase before shooting) and some bad (random psychic powers), but until I actually read the rules I am not going to jump ship simply because of what might be and I would encourage others to do the same.

Prim made a comment in another thread that I'd feel better when a new eldar dex full of new shiny toys was released. In fact, the opposite is true - im dreading a new eldar dex, exactly because it will be full of shiny new toys, and they will look lovely, and I'll want them. But unless I'm willing to reverse my Spevna stance and once again drop offensively high amounts of cash on them, I won't be able to have them. When you can't keep up with the new releases, when you have to deny yourself all the cool new toys, the game becomes increasingly lackluster, simply because every new release is nothing more than another temptation to resist. It gets to the point where there's nothing to look forward to in the game anymore.

Right now I am on a tight budget (my wife lost her job 6 months ago and whilst we can still live comfortably, my spending is much more limited than this time last year. Most of my hobby money goes on travelling to games these days. So I get what you mean about not buying the lastest toys (though the reason is different, the effect is the same).

I do see there being a difference between buying a full new army (Dark Eldar for example) and buying a couple of new units a year. Its not like you have a lot of armies and its not like GW is very good at pumping out the codexes on any regular basis. Plus, with stuff like CSM, you can pretty much use any model as any other model without too much work. A little green stuff, a swapped arm and you're done in many cases. All it means is that instead of spending 200 plus GBP at Forge World (same company as GW and you know it) on the new Eldar toys, you spend 30000 yen at Ikeda's store on the new GW plastics. Limiting yourself to brand new units rather than "oooh looky, plastic fire dragons" will make a difference too. If you find yourself in the UK or US you can order from a discount store and save some money that way too.

At the end of the day, refusing to buy something out of principle is fine, but not if it is making you miserable. You only get one shot at life (as far as I am aware), so you may as well enjoy what you can.

[AndrewGPaul]

On the topic of using other rulesets (Spevna has suggested a few and AGP has mentioned Tomorrow's War a couple of times elsewhere), would it be a case of playing 40k with a different set of rules or using GW minis to play a totally different game?

That's up to you. You can design the stats for the units to fit the 40K background, although Tomorrow's War (and likely all the others) will not have the same level of fiddly detail and special rules as 40K does.

Alternatively, you can invent your own background, and use the miniatures you have as whatever you like. For example, you could make a good "futuristic Vietnam"-style army using Imperial Guard infantry, Space Marine scouts and Tau vehicles.

For me, Warhammer 40,000 isn't just a rule set, it is a setting for the game to be in. I enjoy my Space Marines being what they are in the 40K fluff rather than just generic "Future Soldier in Future Armour" types. It may sound dumb, but that is as important to me, if not moreso than the rules themselves.

It's the same for me. The thing is, the rules are entirely irrelevant when it comes to the setting and feel of the game. If you think about it, how could it be the case, when there have been three significantly different sets of rules, all of which purport to represent the same thing. That's not even taking into account four versions of Epic, Space Hulk, Space Crusade, Advanced Space Crusade, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Confrontation, Inquisitor or Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch/etc. over a dozen different sets of rules, each of which is contradictory to a greater or lesser extent. How can you claim that the rules are important to the setting?

At the end of the day, I am very content to keep playing 5th IF 6th ed isn't fun for me. The ideal situation would be if 6th ed simply clears up a few of the inconsistencies in 5th (making similar psychic powers work in the same way for example). I am pretty sure that that isnt going to be the case and that a whole lot will have been changed throughout the system. Some of it sounds good (Dropping out of the sky with a jump pack and smashing someone's teeth down their throat sounds fun), some ok (assault phase before shooting) and some bad (random psychic powers), but until I actually read the rules I am not going to jump ship simply because of what might be and I would encourage others to do the same.
anymore.

Oi. stop talking sense. We'll have none of that sort of talk round here.

[Primarch]

For me, Warhammer 40,000 isn't just a rule set, it is a setting for the game to be in. I enjoy my Space Marines being what they are in the 40K fluff rather than just generic "Future Soldier in Future Armour" types. It may sound dumb, but that is as important to me, if not moreso than the rules themselves.

It's the same for me. The thing is, the rules are entirely irrelevant when it comes to the setting and feel of the game. If you think about it, how could it be the case, when there have been three significantly different sets of rules, all of which purport to represent the same thing. That's not even taking into account four versions of Epic, Space Hulk, Space Crusade, Advanced Space Crusade, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Confrontation, Inquisitor or Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch/etc. over a dozen different sets of rules, each of which is contradictory to a greater or lesser extent. How can you claim that the rules are important to the setting?

I didn't claim that . I said the setting for the game was as important if not moreso than the game rules. Of course, if the game rules aren't fun, then I shall look elsewhere for a way to enjoy the setting. More than likely though, I will look backwards to 5th edition rather than looking elsewhere to find a game that requires me to rewrite all of the material to fit the rules. It's a simpler option, I know I like it and I already have everything I need. Plus, it will be easier to work new material (codexes, IA etc) into it if I feel like it.
I may however, pick up Tomorrow's War anyway just as a different game to play, especially given how many good looking near future SF minis there are available these days.

Oi. stop talking sense. We'll have none of that sort of talk round here.

Isn't there usually a 'non-' in that sentence? Seems strange to see it without one.

[ashmie]

This topic has opened up some really good points and lots of thoughts so I'll try to be brief.
There is nothing wrong with 40k (other than the lack of farms and constant war ) but the Spevna stance has it: No to GW yes to 40k. Whatever hobby you have, golf, trains whatever there will always be a branded famous company pushing 'geek crack'.
It sounds like you are experiencing gaming burn out something that happened to me a few times over the last year. Have a break from 40k if you would feel better, come back to it when you have the patience for the new rules and NH next year. It's not dead but there is a possibility that you have moved on or grown out if it. We change as individuals all the time so what was appealing 5 years ago won't be now.
I would say take a break from it. Come back to it when you are inspired to tinker your Eldar army a little for the new rules if needs be, don't feel you have to rush out and buy a whole new force.
If all else fails play the edition that you like the best and represents your industrial age of wargaming and above all play opponants who are in agreement with your kind of game. Hope this helps.

With any game we play there has to be community support for it. If we have that then we have a game that's good. I like the way Talisman is still very popular with our group as it was the first game I ever played back in '87. Didn't this group of gamers start out playing at Fort Spevna as Blood Bowl days after all.
Keep the 40k, keep the love, keep your models and agree on the edition with your opponent but above all don't buy anymore. Unless you really really need to.

You only get one shot at life (as far as I am aware), so you may as well enjoy what you can.

Word to ya Mamma. Good call.

[Spevna]

This topic has opened up some really good points and lots of thoughts so I'll try to be brief.
There is nothing wrong with 40k (other than the lack of farms and constant war ) but the Spevna stance has it: No to GW yes to 40k. Whatever hobby you have, golf, trains whatever there will always be a branded famous company pushing 'geek crack'.
It sounds like you are experiencing gaming burn out something that happened to me a few times over the last year. Have a break from 40k if you would feel better, come back to it when you have the patience for the new rules and NH next year. It's not dead but there is a possibility that you have moved on or grown out if it. We change as individuals all the time so what was appealing 5 years ago won't be now.
I would say take a break from it. Come back to it when you are inspired to tinker your Eldar army a little for the new rules if needs be, don't feel you have to rush out and buy a whole new force.
If all else fails play the edition that you like the best and represents your industrial age of wargaming and above all play opponants who are in agreement with your kind of game. Hope this helps.

With any game we play there has to be community support for it. If we have that then we have a game that's good. I like the way Talisman is still very popular with our group as it was the first game I ever played back in '87. Didn't this group of gamers start out playing at Fort Spevna as Blood Bowl days after all.
Keep the 40k, keep the love, keep your models and agree on the edition with your opponent but above all don't buy anymore. Unless you really really need to.

You only get one shot at life (as far as I am aware), so you may as well enjoy what you can.

Word to ya Mamma. Good call.

Sounds quite right.

[Colonel Voss]

I don't think 40k is dead. No matter what happens I will continue to play, the question remains how much and what priority it will be for me.

Unlike many of you who have gone Spvena stance and tremble, I long ago accepted GW as just another corporation out to get my money (must be my deep roots in Shadowrun) just like any other company. As a background I greatly enjoy the richness they have made. Rule wise, 5th is fine but flawed in some ways. The models GW puts out is top rate and the eye candy models that I would love to get (even if it meant building an army just to center piece it) are pretty high.

That being said, 40k and fantasy have been dropping lately for me for a variety of reasons.

Like all of you, I have felt the price rise pain. That it happens every year gets tiring. Some of my armies would be completely out of my price range were I too start them now (IG, skaven minus the IoB) and even those in my price range, it gets hard to justify certain things. Even with Ikeda-sans discounts I am finding that my purchases will become much more limited from now on and that my necrons will grow quite slowly. I can also say that horde armies are completely out of the question after this recent price hike.

Size and numbers also have become a problem. When Prim came over last time he commented on how light his bag felt since he only brought warmachine. I have a car and even I find bringing a normal 2000 pnt IG force nearly as daunting as just bringing an apoc force. Painting wise it is the same thing. With warmachine/hordes the number of troops in a unit is low so I can always be excited to painting something even if only slightly different and push through the last miniature or two in the unit, but 40k it is endless of the same models (it doesn't help that 40k encourages spamming).

Constantly restarting can be weary as well. GW has (as we all know) a very strong penchant to release cool new things while at the same time negating things from previous books. Either they get weaker or they are removed (all the special IG rules gone) or completely reinvented. Add in changes in each new edition to this and you can seriously have a large problem. This forces people to rebuild their armies sometimes from the ground up. That then rotates us back to points one and two. Warmachine has done well by adding new without negating the old. While I may like to get my hands on the new models, I don't feel like I am at a disadvantage if I don't for what ever reason. FoW's recent new edition has been great in that I don't feel like my army lost any potency (and they sure gave Job a run for his money last time out) nor do I feel like I have to start over and rebuild my army.

So while I will still play 40k, it has slowly sank to the bottom of the pile of games I am interested in. As I also don't get many games in anyways, so I am also focusing more on choosing things that excite me to paint or display while adding to my collection.

[Admiral-Badruck]

Wow you guys have a lot of time on your hands if GW was to discontinue the game for any reason there would be fan design and what not and with out IP the models would be a lot more flavourful. I look forward to the day that GW no longer exists because then the lore an hobby will grow and be very fun... GW does not Support Necromunda and folks still play it Gork a morka could be fun if more people wanted to play it.

40k only dies if we let it.