6th ed more complex to learn?

[kojibear]

Y I met an Eldar player in Kyoto he must have been all of 16 or 17. I asked him how he was going to paint his models for his army. To which he replied, I'm not going to it's mendoksai.

Pretty soon the young kids here will say it is too mendokusai to breathe. That is my least favourite word in Japanese.

But I was surprised too, I thought GW's target market was getting younger.

[Primarch]

The target market in their stores is the teenage crowd. The older players dont go to their stores because they are full of kids.
That's not to say that GW dont sell a LOT to older players, just that they dont go out of their way to market things to us. They know that we will buy stuff regardless (Spevna stance excluded), so they make no effort to appeal to us. They make little effort to connect current stuff to past editions and write articles and guides primarily intended for new players. E.g. their current starter paint set. Previously the starter paint set had 'Eavy Metal grade painted models on the front, but evidently kids who had just started painting found it a bit disheartening when they realised they couldn't reach anywhere near that level. The new starter paint set has beginner grade painted models on the front. When the kiddies find that they CAN reach that level, they feel all warm and fuzzy on the inside and buy more stuff.

And for the record, Mendokusai is the best word in Japanese that I know. It is so useful.

[me_in_japan]

my least favourite word/phrase in Japanese is "boiru-sama/san/sensei wa dou omoimasuka?", cos it means I should really have been paying attention five minutes ago...
my most annoying word is definitely "shiran". It's something to do with the way kids say it. Makes me want to clip em round the ear.

and for what it's worth, I'm given to understand that GW dont give a fig for the experienced player, as said players already have a bunch of stuff and have personally witnessed the price rise from 60p for a nicely cast, metal aspect warrior to 4pounds for a shitecast aspect warrior. While I appreciate that the UK economy has had a certain amount of inflation in the time separating those prices, I'm preeeety certain that the pound hasn't appreciated 566% . (my maths may be wonky there - I was never much good at that kind o thing. Do forgive me...)

Out of interest, I did some sums. A new BA army of 1500 pts (picked as a fairly representative newbie BA army by me) costs:

Codex - 20GBP
40k Rulebook - 45GBP
Psychic deck - 8BGP
Case for minis - 61.50GBP (not that it actually fits any GW models, but that won't stop the staff selling it to unsuspecting punters)
Templates - 12.50GBP
Dice - 4.10GBP

Battleforce - 70GBP
Mephiston - 12.30GBP
Sang guard - 20.50GBP
Furi dred - 28.00GBP
Drop Pod - 22.50
Stormraven - 50GBP
Predator - 35GBP

Citadel starter set (paint, glue, clippers etc) - 35.00GBP



Total outlay for a pretty bare-minimum, entry-level 40k player, playing an elite army with low miniature count and no optional shit like painting guides is 424.40GBP.

When was the last time any of us "experienced players" spent that much money on minis in one sitting? And heck, that's just for the buy-in. If the player actually enjoys it, he's going to want to get more paint for starters, then he's gonna want more death co, some terminators probly, a land raider, etc etc.

Where do kids get this money from? From mum and dad, obviously. I'd imagine most parents cant afford this kind of expense for their kids, but again, the GW business model doesnt care. It used to be that they needed 3 new players buying in to make 450 quid. Now they only need one. If the other two dont join, its no problem for GW. They still get their money.

And that is why GW doesnt give a fig for us experienced players. They don't need us - there is way more gold in the verdant Mountains of Newb than in the parched Desert of Crusty Veteran. I'm sure that someone somewhere in the echelons of GW understands that the hobby will stagnate without the veterans there to inovate and push things forwards, and also that they cant continue to raise the buy-in costs indefinitely, but they really dont care. It's all about the bottom line today, not some hypothetical PR/customer base problem 5 or 10 years from now.

Speaking of PR, I was interested to see that the vibe on the CMON golden daemon chat forums is incredibly scathing of GW's attitude. Daemon winners, heck, Slayer Sword winners are on there bitching about GW's attitude and how they don't give a damn about painting, the contest is shite, there isnt even a GD painting room anymore, the trophies are badly cast and your name plaque falls off. Oh, and the swords are poor quality, too. (this was particularly referencing the American GDs. The european ones are still somewhat respected, although that's more due to the judges actually appreciating art there rather than any better treatment of the contest by GW.)

*edit* ps, ignore the first line of my sig. Today I feel the need to vent, for tomorrow I venture forth into the Glasgow GW with the intent of buying my first (and possibly only) finecast mini. "No, Dave! Don't do it!" I hear you say. Well, I need a bloody archon for my Dark Eldar. I tried to proxy, I really did. Turns out the Hordes Skorne chappy was way too big and the Infinity sniper lady was way too small. Only thing that fits the scale is a GW dark eldar. I dont like the archon model, so I intend to get a lhamean. Its a nice mini, and costs less than I've paid for minis on ebay. Being finecast (and has only ever been available in finecast) the only reliable way to buy it is to do it in person. That way, if I have to, I can be that guy who asks the staff repeatedly to open another blister until I get one that isnt miscast. I appreciate that this will probably not make me very popular, but if their product wasnt literally full of holes it wouldnt be problem in the first fecking place, no?

[AndrewGPaul]

Did you really buy that many Eldar straight off the bat? I doubt it. I started with the box of 10 RTB01 beakies, and added units here and there, as and when I could afford it. It took me a couple of months to save up for an assault squad, and even that was spending more of my money that was perhaps wise.

Looking at that list, and projecting back 20 years ...

I'd have got the Battleforce as a birthday or christmas present, and if I was clever enough I'd have got the rulebook from a different relative. I would probably have bought Mephiston out of pocket money (and even then, he'd have been a month's "income"), the rest as further birthdays or christmases.

[me_in_japan]

exactly my point. Back in the day, the expected buy-in was affordable by most folks. The basic game consisted of about a dozen guys, maybe 20. Nowadays? ...not so much...

[pdfitzg]

On certain aspects of this, I take a different view than MiJ. I think the costs and general player attitude has built a wall keeping out the majority of young players. Even though teens mostly annoy me (sadly starting to pick up hints of it from my son), I'm happy when I see a GW store full of them because the hobby needs new blood or it will fade away as we do. It is the veteran base that buys hordes of models. Most of my 40K friends have closets full of unfinished, or even unstarted projects. In general, kids can't afford them and aren't the money maker for GW. The only time you really see parents supporting their kids in 40K is if they have an interest in this hobby, or a similar one. There are newbies that aren't kids, but most of us players are middle aged and our circle of friends is pretty full, so we aren't introducing as many new players as we used to. GW has no choice but to put some effort back into recruiting younger crowds, I'm just not sure how they can do it at the current price points.

As for the Golden Demon and Slayer winners... They are perfectionists, mostly with a focus on competitve painting and GW is the only game in town that can support that on a large scale so the complaints don't surprise me.

Not saying all is well between me and GW. Still upset about the prices. Find the onslaught of GW store staff to be a turnoff. Think they dropped the ball with finecast (Chinese QC and mass resin production don't mix). And their IP battles tend to piss me off. But they still mostly get it right and almost no matter where I go in the world, I can find other 40K players to share in my hobby, whether in praise or complaint so I'll keep on sending boatloads of money to GW rather than other hobby companies.

[pdfitzg]

On certain aspects of this, I take a different view than MiJ. I think the costs and general player attitude has built a wall keeping out the majority of young players. Even though teens mostly annoy me (sadly starting to pick up hints of it from my son), I'm happy when I see a GW store full of them because the hobby needs new blood or it will fade away as we do. It is the veteran base that buys hordes of models. Most of my 40K friends have closets full of unfinished, or even unstarted projects. In general, kids can't afford them and aren't the money maker for GW. The only time you really see parents supporting their kids in 40K is if they have an interest in this hobby, or a similar one. There are newbies that aren't kids, but most of us players are middle aged and our circle of friends is pretty full, so we aren't introducing as many new players as we used to. GW has no choice but to put some effort back into recruiting younger crowds, I'm just not sure how they can do it at the current price points.

As for the Golden Demon and Slayer winners... They are perfectionists, mostly with a focus on competitve painting and GW is the only game in town that can support that on a large scale so the complaints don't surprise me.

Not saying all is well between me and GW. Still upset about the prices. Find the onslaught of GW store staff to be a turnoff. Think they dropped the ball with finecast (Chinese QC and mass resin production don't mix). And their IP battles tend to piss me off. But they still mostly get it right and almost no matter where I go in the world, I can find other 40K players to share in my hobby, whether in praise or complaint so I'll keep on sending boatloads of money to GW rather than other hobby companies.

[Admiral-Badruck]

I think it is just a matter of perspective. You want peopel to build lists for the meta game. Not for fun. You can find minis on eBay for next to free.. And you can also play 500 point games. And build a unit a month. Start with the kill team missions. Use an old rule book the negativity is not needed to play the game. I started out with a box of fire warriors. And the most I have ever paid for an army I $600 and that was pre painted and assembled. ( I will never do that again). But the maing thing is you can gt in to the game with out paying that much.

[jus]

Total outlay for a pretty bare-minimum, entry-level 40k player, playing an elite army with low miniature count and no optional shit like painting guides is 424.40GBP.

An exaggeration surely!

Codex/rules can be acquired elsewhere discreetly
Starter set can account for tactical squads and dice and templates.
Psychic cards deck...who in their right minds will buy these?
Case: most people i know use a shoebox and foam or tupperware.
Hobby tools: you dont think people have some clippers and a knife lying around?

Drop pod? ..iranai
Predator?..iranai

Id say a starter army can be squared away with at a modest 200 pounds. Not exactly cheap, but a far cry from Scrooge Mc'boyle's ludicrous estimates, to be sure!

[Primarch]

@Jus - True, but lets be honest here, it would be a real beginner army. The contents of Black Reach are not exactly great. Tactical marines, shooty terminators and a vanilla dread are nowhere near the top of anyone's list of 'must have' items and certainly not on a BA player's shopping list, (which was the example M_i_J gave). The player would still want to expand if they were playing people who had been playing for a while.

Out of interest, I just tallied up the costs of 2 of my marine armies on the GW site, both running to 2000 points-ish.

Crimson Fists - 385 GBP, no rulebooks or extras, only the models.
Ravenguard - 351 GBP, no rulebooks or extras, only the models. (Not including FW stuff)

Of course, those models could be bought a lot cheaper via Maelstrom or Ebay and as Jus mentions, the rulebooks can be found elsewhere, but I think new players in the UK/USA generally begin buying models from a GW store or FLGS rather than anywhere else, which would also require real books to be purchased. I could be wrong as I have no real information either way.