New shooting rules.

[The Underdweller]

I get what's being debated here. It's a can of worms isn't it.
Basically you can't hit what's out of range but this adds complications when determining where you are measuring from and to.
Front of the unit? I've got a feeling me and Satoru used to play some home brew rules where we measured the range of each model to each model. This is fine with skirmishes but will slow a bigger point game down.
Hmmm, ponder.

So, as long as a shooting model's weapon has enough range to hit the closest target model, it is eligible to shoot, even after the closest target model has been removed (during that phase) - because in "reality" all of the shots are simultaneous.
As long as a target model is in range of any of the firing unit's weapons, it can be hit by any ranged weapon in that unit that is eligible to shoot, regardless of a particular weapon's range or dice rolling order.

[ashmie]

So, as long as a shooting model's weapon has enough range to hit the closest target model, it is eligible to shoot, even after the closest target model has been removed (during that phase) - because in "reality" all of the shots are simultaneous.
As long as a target model is in range of any of the firing unit's weapons, it can be hit by any ranged weapon in that unit that is eligible to shoot, regardless of a particular weapon's range or dice rolling order.

This seems like common sense and is easy to understand.

[Admiral-Badruck]

Hat is off to Da beaky boss an his understanding of the rulez.


I now understand this rule very well. I knew I would once he go into the conversation.

Thanks prime.

[me_in_japan]

Yea, he's good like that. *cap doff*

[Admiral-Badruck]

This is not my argument... Some one else is trying to slap down Primes explanation. Wich I reposted... His counter argument goes like this. ....

@ rob you are laying out the most straight-forward of examples, and I don't think that anyone here would disagree with you. Because the last marine in the unit is still within range of the closest guardsman, he is allowed to fire, hit, and wound the guard unit. The question comes in when there are models which lay out of range, and are not allowed to fire their shots. I am throwing up a picture here because I don’t know if my typing will maintain its format in this thread.

Here are 8 marines 23 inches away from 5 guardsmen. The marines have boltguns, which have a 24 inch range. The three marines closest to the guardsmen unit are all within range of only the front guardsman, and so are permitted to shoot at him. The other marines are not within range, and so can’t fire their weapons, because that’s what it says on pg. 12 under check range. Say all three shoot, hit, and cause wounds. Now you have to allocate wounds from the wound pool. The front guardsman is killed by the first wound, but now the next closest guardsman is technically out of range of the other two marines who have caused wounds. This is where the rule you site on pg. 16 (out of range) comes into play – these models were determined to be in range when the to hit rolls were made, so their wounds can still be inflicted upon the guardsmen who are now technically out of their maximum range. I think we agree on this logic, right? I hope so.

Now comes the tricky part, which is the FAQ. It says

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e. half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half are not)? (p15)
A: No.

The words “not within range of any of the shooting models” are tricky. This is the case in our example – the three marines who shot the guardsmen were not within range of any guardsmen except for the front one. In real life, their guns couldn’t reach any of the guardsmen after the first one.

The FAQ seems to suggest that we should now ignore the "out of range" rule on page 16, and that in the example I just gave, only one wound could be allocated to the guardsmen, because the rest of them were out of range... and the other two wounds left in the pool would be discarded. But if GW intended for us to ignore that rule and replace it with this, why wouldn’t they have specified that? This is why we all just need to decide on how we are going to play it before hand.

Badruck here. I think this is fairly cut and dry the unit is still wounded 3 times even if there were no model other than the first one in range. At no point does the rule say go back and re mesure to see if there are no models that would have been in range afte the unit has been wounded. Or am I wrong here. An only the first model is wounded.

[Konrad]

So boyz and gurlz, what did we learn today? Shoot your short ranged stuff first, then let them have it with the Big Shootaz.

Actually, the rules say that "all of the models in the unit fire at the same time regardless of whether or not all of the dice are rolled together." (p 13) - so you can allocated the wounds made with your Big Shootaz first if you want them to affect the guys at the front of the unit, and then the short ranged stuff will still affect any guys who were in range of the Big Shootaz, as long as the shorter ranged stuff was in range to hit the front guys.

I think?

Grrrr, now I am getting confused.

27x Shootaboyz 3xBigShootaz >>>17inches>>> 1xtargit>>19-32inches9xtargits

I open up, score 10 wounds with the shootaz, score none with the Big shootaz. The first wound pastes Mr 17 inches, I then can allocate 9 more wounds on the gits at 19 inches because they are in range of the Big Shootaz?

If I'm getting pg 16 right, then it looks like yes. The FAQ only clarifies what to do if some of the targets are out of range of any of the shooters. Using the above example, if there were not any Big Shootaz in the shooting unit, only Mr.17 inches would be removed...with 10 big holes...ouch!

[Primarch]

It is actually pretty simple.
If you were ever in range of any of the units guns, you are always in range for all shots fired, even if by the time the dice hit the table something changes.
If you were never in range, you are never in range.

In the example Badruck cites above the marines can only hit the guardsmen who were in range when they checked. If that was only 1 guy, then that is all they can kill. Wounds will not carry back through the unit to models who were never in range.

BUT

Let's say that one of the marines further away has a lascannon (48" range). ALL of the enemy unit is in range of the lascannon. Even if the lascannon misses, the target unit are ALL potential targets for the boltguns, so the wounds can be carried back past the first guy.

I know it seems somewhat irrational, but this is a game, not an accurate modelling of real life ballistics. The reason is simple, the rule has no exceptions listed. If the rule works a certain way when it is at it's most simple (My example of 10 marines in a line further up the thread), it works the same way when it is at it's most complex. If you try and apply rational arguments to it (ie the bolters could only hit one guy, so the lascannon shouldn't make a difference), the rule no longer works and the game falls apart. The FAQ didn't change the rule, it just clarified that if you are never in range of any guns you can never be targeted.

[The Underdweller]

This is not my argument... Some one else is trying to slap down Primes explanation. Wich I reposted... His counter argument goes like this. ....

Do you mean me? If that's the way it came across, I apologize; Prim's explanation is correct, as always!

[me_in_japan]

@underdweller - I think badruck had reposted Prim's argument on another forum, where someone disagreed with it. This disagreement post made up the bulk of badruck's last post here. He's cross forum question posting.
Yeah - it confused me, too, at first...

Just to chip in my tuppence worth:

____________M1
M5 M4 <-2"-> M2<------------23.5"-------------->O1 O2 O3 O4 O5
____________M3
Assuming bases are 1" wide, all marines have bolters, and all models are in B2B:

M1, M2 and M3 are in range of O1 only when firing commences. M4-M5 are not in range of anybody. Even though the marines could cause 3 wounds, only O1 can be removed as a casualty.

However, if M5 happens to have a las cannon, things change.
Because the furthest away marine can now target the furthest ork, all of both units now count as engaged. So, now all 4 bolter marines, plus lascannon, can cause Orks to be removed.


Seems a bit daft to me*, but this is GW rules we're talking about here...

*edit - especially marine 4. He's not in range, and never was, and yet he can kill stuff? That seems well off. Surely you have to measure each marine's range when they fire. Those in range can fire, those out of range can't. Regardless of lascannons.

I'm not rulebook checking, here, but my personal understanding is:

1) measure to see which of your models are in range of any enemy models. That's how many dice you roll.
2) roll to hit. Roll to wound. Make saves, staring from the closest enemy model.

In short, you measure range individually, but you roll to wound/remove casualties as a unit. (i.e. once initial range-measuring has been done, individual ranges no longer matter.)

[Primarch]

This is not my argument... Some one else is trying to slap down Primes explanation. Wich I reposted... His counter argument goes like this. ....

Do you mean me? If that's the way it came across, I apologize; Prim's explanation is correct, as always!

No, it looks like that was from another forum.


Anyway, I will try to explain things with a diagram. Apologies for the appearance, I dont have a good way to draw on my phone.


Marines ----------------------- Guardsmen
A <--25"--> 1
B <--24"--> 2 <2">3<2">4
C <--24"-->
D <--22"-->
E

Marine A is out of range of every guardsman, therefore he cannot shoot.
Marines B, C and E are within 24" of guardsmen 1 and 2 so therefore they can shoot.
Marine D is within 24" of guardsmen 1, 2 and 3 so therefore he can shoot.
None of the marines are in range of guardsman 4, so regardless of the number of hits scored, guardsman 4 can not be hit by any of the shooting.
Now, assuming that all of the marines have bolt guns, it doesn't matter which ones hit and which ones miss. Guardsmen 1, 2 and 3 are all potential targets.
But lets say marine D has a plasma gun.
Guardsmen 1 and 2 are in range of boltguns and the plasma gun, but guardsman 3 is only in range of the plasma gun. Now, lets say that when the to hit rolls are made the boltguns get 3 hits but the plasma gun gets hot and kills the marine firing it. Logic would dictate that the 3 boltgun hits can only wound guardsmen 1 and 2. However, as the rules say otherwise (page 16), guardsmen 1, 2 and 3 CAN be hit by boltgun fire. The FAQ simply clarifies that guardsman number 4 is safe.

To break it down step by step.
1 Choose a unit to fire and a target.
2 Check which models have range and LoS to hit any models in the enemy unit.
3 Check which enemy models are outside the range of ALL the guns being fired in the shooting unit. (If you can't/won't fire the gun then you don't check the range)
4 Check which enemy models are completely outside the LoS of all the shooting models in the unit. (Again, if it isn't shooting you cannot use it's LoS).
5 You have now determined all of your potential targets. At no further stage in the shooting phase will those tergets be reassessed. You can start rolling to hit safe in the knowledge that you are playing by the rules.