Is warhammer 40k dead?

[Admiral-Badruck]

As for the price of models come on nothing in the rule book says you have to play with 2000 points worth of stuff 500 points is comparable in most games price wise if one got two starter sets it would be enoug for 2 armies.

[Spevna]

As for the price of models come on nothing in the rule book says you have to play with 2000 points worth of stuff 500 points is comparable in most games price wise if one got two starter sets it would be enoug for 2 armies.

Indeed! Combat patrol style games are always fun.

Small elite games that ignore FOC can be fun too. Nothing but HQ and Elite choices

It is important to take ownership of the game.

[AndrewGPaul]

I would have thought with Dave's painting style, smaller squad-level games would be more his thing. Those Plague Marines, for instance, would make a cracking Kill Team, for example.

[Spevna]

I would have thought with Dave's painting style, smaller squad-level games would be more his thing. Those Plague Marines, for instance, would make a cracking Kill Team, for example.

You'd think so.

There is so much potential for variety both in modelling and game type in 40K.

[me_in_japan]

Glad to see everyone has an opinion

For those of an impatient disposition, feel free to skip the wall of explanatory text and go straight to the resolution at the bottom (in blue). For those who would like to know what I'm thinking, read on

I've been pondering the best course of action (speaking personally, of course. What each of you do is entirely up to you.) I'll address a couple of points raised earlier before I go on with my thoughts.

Prim - you mention not wanting to call 40k a dead duck before you read the 6th ed rules, and I think that's fair enough. If rules were the source of my dissatisfaction I'd be right with you on that. I've been thinking a lot about what it is I'm unhappy with in 40k, and it's not the rules. I don't really mind the rules, per se. I know them pretty much inside out. theyre like a comfy old jumper - they may be full of holes, but they're very familiar and somehow cosy. Even if they change a bit when 6th ed comes along, it's still going to be WS, BS, S, T and so on. My concern with 40k goes deeper than any single edition or change of rules. What bothers me is what the rules are indicative of.

It seems the game is no longer designed solely for a fun playing experience. It is deliberately designed to promote periodic changes in players armies, and the use of large numbers of large units. The game, in fact, is no longer a game. It is a sales device. The fact that the rules (5th ed, at least) are fun is a welcome side effect, so far as GW HQ is concerned. Now, while the game designers no doubt intend for it to be a good, fun game, I can't help but wonder which comes first when the suits sit round the meeting table - fun and playable, or inclined to sell boxes of space marines. Has a designer ever been told "change that rule - we can't have players fielding armies of 3 models." ?

I somehow feel that if nobody was buying 40k stuff, most all of the GW top folks would just go off and start working elsewhere as accountants, managers, and so on. With other games companies (Wyrd, PP, etc) I can't help but feel that if the world stopped buying minis, there would be folk near the top in those companies who would just go on designing games in their bedrooms because they enjoy it.

You also mentioned just not spending money on FW stuff and buying GW stuff instead. I don't actually buy much FW stuff. When I do, it tends to be fairly carefully considered. I havent bought any in a good long while, and I dont see myself doing so in the future, either. Even though it's actually considerably cheaper than GW stuff, I still think it's too expensive.

Spev - you mentioned using smaller units. If the game was better designed, this would be a neat solution, but (whether deliberately or not) 40k units do not work well at low numbers. The rules reward a player for maxing out on things. Units simply work better when there are lots of guys in them. This is a generalisation, of course - there are no doubt several units you could pick out that work fine at lower numbers, but not many. It's generally about the massed firepower, the massed assault (even in the elite armies there are still more models than in your average Warmachine army, for example).

While the game can be played at lower points values, again, the design of the rules makes it work best at the 1500 - 2000 pt level. Any more and it gets unwieldy and turns into a war of attrition. Any less, and one unlucky round and you're stuffed. At 1500-2000pts you can take that bad round of shooting and still get back into the game. When you start using alternative rulesets like Killzone, then youre not really playing warhammer 40k any more. Youre just using GW minis to play another skirmish game. Skirmish size games of this nature would definitely suit me better than the large scale games like 40k, but, like myself, most folks have invested a lot of time and money into building 40k size armies, and would like to use them. This is reflected in teh fact that when people round here play 40k, they play standard 40k, not Killzone.

All of the above concerns could, with some creativity, be worked around. I agree with that. However, what bothers me is that it needs to be worked around at all. Why do we have to proxy models, make up house rules about unit sizes, just straight up use other rulesets, and fret about which hugely expensive box of minis we're going to buy this year? What makes 40k worth all that hassle? Why not just play some other game that works out-of-the-box without all the faffing about to make it work properly, all the while using reasonably priced armies made by the game's own company?

The big issue with 40k is the cost of the game. Yes, I have a ton of eldar. Yes, they'll probably play fine in 6th ed (once they get a codex ) but I recall the years when I was a teenager when I used to really look forward to buying new models. Now they cost so much, I can't do that. I can't even buy single character models because they'll be in finecast, and the only reliable way to buy finecast is to do it in person to check the casting and replacing it until you get one that isnt crap. That means going to Ikeda-san's store, paying GWJ prices (which even with Ikeda-san's very reasonable discount are still offensively expensive) and then being an ass to Ikeda-san and opening half his stock until you find one that isn't miscast. When it comes to buying units, the price goes through the roof.

All of the above reads in a somewhat more negative tone than I intended it to. I set out to just explain my thought process, but on the way, while responding to comments made, it turned into a tale of woe. However, I do accept the reality that 40k is not going to go away for the moment, and, in fact, I intend to approach this new edition as optimistically as possible. With that in mind, I gave some thought to how I can reinject some inspiration into my 40k experience. I came up with the following:

1) It helps to look at the shinies you already have. I'm going to lay out all my eldar on a table, all at the same time. Might be a bit scary...
2) stop mucking about with Dark Eldar. I'm bored with black. Come back to em later, maybe.
3) Maybe do sone nurgle conversions. I have those bikers I never really got round to finishing, as well as a Huron Blackheart that I intened to nurglify.
4) Pirate eldar. I got that IA 11 book and havent really used much out of it. I have the parts to make 10 pirate eldar, plus a bunch of old RT eldar who look pretty piratey, plus some FW shinies that havent really seen much use (or paint). I could have a stab at painting a smallish eldar corsair force and see if that perks my interest.

Does anybody have any other (sensible) suggestions?

[Primarch]

Is 40k designed to encourage you to buy new stuff? Yes, yes it is. But so is your iphone. Sure you can just use the standard settings, but when there are a load of shiny new apps that you can be mucking about with why not download them? GW is no different from most companies in that regard. If people stop buying their products, they go under, therefore they want you to keep buying their products. Are the folks behind the company a bunch of scumbags? Yes, yes they are. Unfortunately you cannot separate the game from the company. On the plus side, it is in their interest to make a game which is fun to play. No-one will buy models if the games suck. Unlike evil corporations in movies, GW realise that to improve their bottom line people actually need to want their products. Whether the game will be fun for me or you as an individual is difficult to say, but GW wouldn't deliberately sell a game that was designed to be bad. Greedy yes, Evil for the sake of being Evil, probably not.

Personally, I have given up caring if GW cares about me or values me as a customer. I dont care about GW and they dont care about me, its mutual. If I enjoy their game then I will play it, if not then I wont. After all, I dont care if the company making Tuna&Mayo Onigiri for Lawson respect me or not. I still eat their onigiri.

So, lets assume that 6th doesn't suck donkey parts (it still might, you never know) and focus on how to get you back in the game.

I'd suggest taking some time to play other games. WM/H or Malifaux for example. A holiday from 40K may be enough to get you back into things again. I have a terrible case of Hobby Butterfly Syndrome and sometimes can't concentrate on a project for more than a few hours before my brain heads off in another direction. But, it is always 40K that I come back to.
When you do feel the need to play 40K try to organise games that you think you will enjoy. Arrange to play people you like to play against and sort out what type of game you want beforehand. Fluffy story based game with both players taking the models they like or A-game only competitive slug-fest where both players bring their best and brightest. Want to try some Doom of Mymeara missions or maybe planetstrike or apocalypse? Someone somewhere will be willing to play it.
And with the changes brought on by 6th, you may, just possibly, perhaps want to break away from the "Only units X and Y are any good" mentality you have with your Eldar and experiment a little. Try out swooping hawks and the Phoenix Lords who aren't Jain Zar and Fuegan for once.

And if all else fails, buy some Napoleonic stuff and start playing Black Powder.

[ashmie]

Does anybody have any other (sensible) suggestions?

Pack it all away for 6 months. Don't feel guilty about not being inspired. Spend some quality down time with family, movie, video games or favourite books. Put you feet up, have a cuppa and come back to it after Summer when the nights get dark again. Then you may feel some inspiration. (There is something special that happens to hobbyists at the end of autumn early winter. We start to stockpile).
Working forward with the minis, feeling guilty or pressured into having to be into it is just going to stress you out mate. Find something that relaxes you after work. As far as the bad vibe about GW, sure big companies suck, like McDonalds right, they suck but I do like a Big Mac now and then. Don't worry about not being as excited about the game as when you were a teenager. We can never get back to that place as much as we try. Find something new that is exciting. Don't beat yourself up about a game that has become very sales orientated. I mean that's why it is still alive after all.

How about the Black Library stuff, I thought you loved all that. Revisit some favourites. Or call it in and hit the real sci-fi Asimov, Phillip K Dick, Robert Heinlein, Robert J Sawyer, Peter F Hamilton, Arthur C. Clarke, HG Wells etc.

And if all else fails, buy some Napoleonic stuff and start playing Black Powder.

Yeeeeessss Roaaaaaar!

[Spevna]

3) Maybe do sone nurgle conversions. I have those bikers I never really got round to finishing, as well as a Huron Blackheart that I intened to nurglify.

4) Pirate eldar. I got that IA 11 book and havent really used much out of it. I have the parts to make 10 pirate eldar, plus a bunch of old RT eldar who look pretty piratey, plus some FW shinies that havent really seen much use (or paint). I could have a stab at painting a smallish eldar corsair force and see if that perks my interest.

[/color]

These two are grand ideas. Doing something creative tends to gird my loins for a bit of gaming.

A small Eldar pirate force fighting their way onto a ship that has been taken over by a bunch of ork lootas who are unaware of the Chaos artifact that the Eldar want to nick and flog to the Dark Eldar or Harlequins (whoever is willing to pay the most). Problem is, the longer they take to get it off the ship, the greater the chance of something gribble from Warp popping up to nick it first!

[AndrewGPaul]

Does anybody have any other (sensible) suggestions?[/color]

It's only a hobby. If it's not fun, stop doing it - at least temporarily. Hopefully there are other things you enjoy doing, so do those instead. If nothing else, you can come round mine when you're in Glasgow, and see if there's anything I've got going spare that you fancy painting instead. In the meantime, go outside, feed the pigeons and don't let it get you.

If nothing else, you've got Spevna to stop talking in the third person.

[Colonel Voss]

I think you first need to figure out if this is burn out or just that 40k has dropped in priority. From there you can figure out the right steps forwards.