New shooting rules.

[Primarch_Vanguard]

Wouldnt it just make sense that any model that is not in range of any model in the opposing unit cannot fire? Page 13. Then the closet model from the firing unit is likely having the most bullets whizzing past him and thus is the first casualty. Makes sense to me. That's what I go by. Simple is best.

What new rules get me is the saves. I think cover should only apply to shooting modifiers and that a model should get all layers of protection against damage. Not just the picking the best one. This really burns me for some reason because it makes no sense. If a model is standing and shooting it should only get its armor save, field or invuln save, and feel no pain save because that's what the weapon has to pass through to kill it. If cover is a save, this means the weapon has to pass through the wall and all layers to kill the model. But if it breaks through the wall, the model gets no armor protection either. The model gets the same save as an unarmored model just because its behind a wall. That makes no sense. It makes more sense that cover offers a minus one to hit and the model gets all saves. I can just see a model flicking his iron halo off and on during a battle. Lol. I know it's scifi and fantasy but let's at least have some common sense and basic physics.

[Primarch]

@PV - If you are not in range, you cannot shoot. The question was, what happens when you are in range of only a few models in a unit and those models are killed before you resolve all of the shooting.
To recap this point from further down the thread:
If you are in range you are always in range.
If you aren't in range you are never in range.
A model can be killed if it is in range of any guns in a unit, regardless of the order of wound allocation.
A model cannot be killed if it is not in range of any of the guns in a unit.


As for the saves, you only take cover saves if it is better than your actual armour save. Yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense that low AP bullets dont have to get through the wall as well as your armour, but then this is a game, not an actual model of real world physics. There are plenty of other things that don't make sense in the game (e.g. rifles with a range of 24 meters, the fact that saves are all or nothing, the way that flyers move to fast to shoot but may actually be travelling slower than some infantry, etc.).
You could always add rules for cover granting a too hit modifier rather than a saving throw, they certainly used to exist that way.

[Primarch_Vanguard]

[quote="Primarch"]@PV - If you are not in range, you cannot shoot. The question was, what happens when you are in range of only a few models in a unit and those models are killed before you resolve all of the shooting.
To recap this point from further down the thread:
If you are in range you are always in range.
If you aren't in range you are never in range.
A model can be killed if it is in range of any guns in a unit, regardless of the order of wound allocation.
A model cannot be killed if it is not in range of any of the guns in a unit.


Ahhhhh. Thx. And that is what I gathered. If you are in range before the shooting begins, you are able to fire no matter what happens during the fight.

[Primarch_Vanguard]

As for the saves, you only take cover saves if it is better than your actual armour save. Yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense that low AP bullets dont have to get through the wall as well as your armour, but then this is a game, not an actual model of real world physics. There are plenty of other things that don't make sense in the game (e.g. rifles with a range of 24 meters, the fact that saves are all or nothing, the way that flyers move to fast to shoot but may actually be travelling slower than some infantry, etc.).
You could always add rules for cover granting a too hit modifier rather than a saving throw, they certainly used to exist that way.[/quote]

@Prim. lol. Yeah, that flyer comment is true.

And I remember when cover was just a modifier and not a saving throw. I'm not sure at all why they changed that. It's one of those rules that just irks me to no end. It will vex me in games. I'm certain of it.

[Konrad]

And I remember when cover was just a modifier and not a saving throw. I'm not sure at all why they changed that. It's one of those rules that just irks me to no end. It will vex me in games. I'm certain of it.

I think they did it to simplify things.....oh the irony..... You ought to play some Necromunda or Gorkamorka. The old skirmish game rules more closely resemble 1st 2nd ed 40K.

[Primarch_Vanguard]

And I remember when cover was just a modifier and not a saving throw. I'm not sure at all why they changed that. It's one of those rules that just irks me to no end. It will vex me in games. I'm certain of it.

I think they did it to simplify things.....oh the irony..... You ought to play some Necromunda or Gorkamorka. The old skirmish game rules more closely resemble 1st 2nd ed 40K.

@konrad, I'm down for Necromunda. But wtf is Gorkamorka. Maybe I know what it is but it goes by this new name.

And I am in the process of making a 40k campaign and it will be run with cover as a shooting modifier and +1 save modifier. This is what we used way back in the day and it worked for everyone. I figure a wall should only be an armor save if you have gone to grow d behind it or are pinned, etc.

I wonder if games workshop just wants to make a new rule book to sell and figures they can't sell the same old rules and decides to tweak what they can get away with to put a squeeze on our wallet.

[Admiral-Badruck]

Gorkamorka is one of the best games games workshop came out with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorkamorka

[Primarch_Vanguard]

Gorkamorka is one of the best games games workshop came out with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorkamorka

Thx. I'll check it out tonight

[Konrad]

Gorkamorka is one of the best games games workshop came out with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorkamorka

Well, maybe not the "best" but the meanest, greenest, full-throttle, waaaaaaaghiest game ever in the history of geekdom!