Making the game your own.

[Primarch]

To avoid derailing Badruck's thread, I have started a new topic to discuss something that Colonel Voss brought up.

I'm at a crossroads with 40k really.

I love the setting, the stories, the miniatures, seeing a fully painted army on a neat board. However the game itself has lost a lot of its luster. It started with the release of the IG codex. While it is cool with the tanks, a lot of the flavor was lost. This flavor is what I enjoy so much about the guard. Yes in the old dex I lost every game, but boy did I go down fighting, down to the last bullet.

When we were doing the Badab war, the Minotaurs were great, then came Nagoyahammer and trying to force the Minotaurs to be what they weren't so I could field an army. Let's face it, they aren't Wolves and just doing Blood Angels without all the cool options just isn't fun.

Finally, the Grey Knights reminded me so much of 2nd Ed. Codex chaos, but at the same time they aren't, so that dragged me down.

Add in the Flames of War portrays how I feel the guard should really be like (massive diversity and flavor), how Warmachine brings back the fun feelings of 2nd Edition, and that the only army I have besides guard is deamons of chaos and that isn't even 1500 pnts.... well I'm not sure what to do really with 40k anymore.

Whilst personally I think the current IG dex is far more versatile than the old one, I can see the Colonel's point. The doctrine system in the old book let you do quite a lot to customise your force. The current book gives you more toys to play with, but with less army wide options.

I think a point that most of us forget, especially if you only get a few games in a year, is that we can do more than just follow the rule books when we play. Of course, for tournaments and so forth, it is better to stick closely to the rules everyone is familiar with because it causes fewer arguments and allows us to get through the game in a reasonable amount of time. But for casual play I see nothing wrong with asking your opponent "Hey is it cool if I try such and such?" Whether it is the latest Forge World toy you've got, some cool idea you saw on the web, or just something different you want to attempt to shake things up a little, I see no harm in giving it a shot.

For example, Badruck, Voss and I did a few games using the Bell of Lost Souls Badab fan rules and they were fun, different and interesting.
Likewise, with Badruck, I played a few games using the spoof army list in an old White Dwarf for the 'Movie Marines.' It was cool, not only to see 10 marines facing off against a horde of 'nids or orks, but also to see them come out on top, just like they should.
A while back Badruck (seeing a pattern here?), Dungeon Lord, DL's mate from Australia and myself tried out the Tempus Fugitive's Age of the Emperor fan rules. We had Leman Russ, Corax, Horus, Angron, Sanguinius and Magnus the Red beating seven bells out of each other. Again, it was fun and something different to try.

That's not to say that just doing whatever you please is the solution to Voss's problem above, whatever you do has to follow some limits on how game breaking it is. Using a Primarch against regular marines is going to make for a short game in most cases. However, negotiating with your opponent, explaining your ideas and making some reasonable house rules isn't beyond any of us. True, some people are less open to this idea than others which is something you need to take into account when deciding who to ask, but at the end of the day, this is something we do for fun to enjoy time with friends.

So with all that said, my question for Voss would be:

What would you like to do with the guard that you cant do now?
I'm pretty sure we can figure something out.

[Admiral-Badruck]

That's just it something the new cast of 40k radio was talking about in the last episode was that GW games are a hobby with a game attached to it. Competitive play is a side note. That players came up with. Prime and I have more fun now that we put our models to good use we can play models that most people think suck an have fun with them and we can play units that might seem totally broken by most standards.

But like my daughter says its just a game and everyone loves Orks.

[kojibear]

I started 40K because I wanted more variety and wanted to share more of the gaming experience with everyone, not just the Fantasy players.

Then I started reading the Horus Heresy books and having a major weakness for fluff:

(See example of fluff love here - http://www.nagoyahammer.com/forum/viewt ... =77&t=1556 )

I then wanted to immerse myself in this world too.

You know, there have been games that I have lost everything, and games I have done the same to my mate on the other side of the table. I have grumbled, too. I have whooped! I have said, 'Well, I think that's the game - I'll get ya next time!" At times, my less respectable moments, I have said, "That unit can do WHAT? Holy Crap!" or "I swear these dice are going to dice hell after this game!"

Now that I am playing so many games, Fantasy, 40k (Thanks Rob Love Ya!), Cutlass, Malifaux and soon Warmachine, I can have a rest if any one game is frustrating me and then go back to it when I am ready for revenge.

As a rule, I am enjoying fluffing the lists up where possible. I don't want to lose a game and not have achieved anything, but if I lose and we both have fun, well that is all good in my book.

Talk to your opponent before hand, ask them what kind of game they feel like playing, fluffy or hard as nails and then accept the outcome of the game, with as few a grumbles as possible. Though a few swears at Lady Luck is quite acceptable! One friend made a good point, however, about fluff lists. It may turn out that your 'Fluff' list is actually the bane of your opponent's 'Fluff' list. Not on purpose, just by chance. I guess that can happen, and I guess it is up to the players to decide what actions to take, if any, prior to the game starting.

I liked what Rob said about going for the 'Epic' moments. Heh, heh, I love it when it works out and you achieve the impossible. If you don't, at least you can laugh about it in most cases.

I'm rambling on now.

Anyway, perhaps the thread should not be about making the games your own, but making the game ours , the two players who are playing. Or is that too Zen?

[Spevna]

Talk before hand about what you want to do. It isn't just a matter if whether you want a fluffy or hard as nails game ( although this is a key issue),but also the story behind the game. Rescue an important imperial official from an ork ship? Teleport to the heart of a tyranid ship, place s bomb and get out in X number if turns? Dark eldar on their way back from a slave raid are ambushed by other slavers?

Flesh out a story before hand and then, with your opponent, plan out your lists so that they represent the story it theme you want to reenact.

[kojibear]

Talk before hand about what you want to do. It isn't just a matter if whether you want a fluffy or hard as nails game ( although this is a key issue),but also the story behind the game. Rescue an important imperial official from an ork ship? Teleport to the heart of a tyranid ship, place s bomb and get out in X number if turns? Dark eldar on their way back from a slave raid are ambushed by other slavers?

Flesh out a story before hand and then, with your opponent, plan out your lists so that they represent the story it theme you want to reenact.

I like the way you think Sir!

[Colonel Voss]

What would you like to do with the guard that you cant do now?

Ohhhh, you asked for it!

1) get ride of all my cadian models (seriously, I absolutely hate cadian and to a lesser extent catachan models)
2) get seperate companies of Tallarn, Valhallans, and Mordians with proper support (this was my 2nd/3rd ed IG army just at the squad level)
3) make a company and platoon based rule system justifying these different units (actually I have something in my mind for this, just never wrote it down)

Honestly, the new toys are nice. Forge world makes the toys even better. But the main selling point for me was the lowly guardsman with his flashlight against the universe. Everything is better than him in some way or another. But he gets to bring along some of his mates and a few tanks and maybe he might just pull it off. Add in the huge variety of units and the diversity that a million different worlds can muster and you have a huge variety that should make the current love of space marines pale by comparison in lists. Now it is just toys rule, grunts drool.

Seriously, the problem with guard goes much deeper than just making up some special rules and scenarios. I brought up FoW mainly because of the huge variety. You've got variable leadership/skill, mass infantry, elite special ops, hard as nails veterans, fanatics, huge tank choices, artillery variety, partisans and security. It just goes on and on with the choices to do an army. That is what the guard really should be, not pigeon holed into one list with armor being the dominant variety factor.

Add in how uninspiring the guard codex is written compared to many of the other dex' out there and I always feel my mind going numb just looking through it. No inspiration anymore. No desire to yell at my men to go over the top and once more into the breach.

[Spevna]

Talk before hand about what you want to do. It isn't just a matter if whether you want a fluffy or hard as nails game ( although this is a key issue),but also the story behind the game. Rescue an important imperial official from an ork ship? Teleport to the heart of a tyranid ship, place s bomb and get out in X number if turns? Dark eldar on their way back from a slave raid are ambushed by other slavers?

Flesh out a story before hand and then, with your opponent, plan out your lists so that they represent the story it theme you want to reenact.

I like the way you think Sir!

And likewise sir, I like the cut of your jib.

That is how 40K was designed to be played many moons ago and that is how I like to see it played.

[Primarch]

What follows is entirely my own, personal opinion and people should feel free to ignore it should they so wish.


Honestly, I find FoW to be fairly bland in terms of how varied the units are. One infantry stand of Riflemen is pretty much just the same as any other. There is a fair variety of tanks, but having looked over some of the lists in the books, I didnt find much that made me think that there was much difference between units. Of course, FoW has 50 lists (yes, I am exagerrating) for each army, which could be where that impression comes from.

But thats neither here nor there when it comes to 40k. They are different games and not so easy to compare since after all, FoW is based on real Orders of Battle whereas 40k is written by a group of SF writers.

Cadians aren't that inspiring as a model range sadly, being the generic average guardsman rather than one of the more interesting types, but that isnt the codex's fault. I would certainly like to see more IG army variants, Catachan, Tallarn, Valhallens should all have their own lists. Elysians and Death Korps have their own army lists in the IA books, so I dont see why the other variants couldn't. GW probably wont bother though as I dont think IG are popular enough. I'd rather see individual lists though rather than some big combined effort as that would limit what you could actually do with each group. A return to the doctrines system wouldn't be a bad idea. If only the other regiments were semi-affordable.

Personally, I think the IG codex is one of the best available, there is enough variety in the units that you can do a veteran list, an infantry horde, an artillery corps, you can even do spec ops with storm troopers and penal legion. Thats not to mention the mechanised infantry, air cavalry and tank divisions. They might not have any of the cool gubbins like Necrons or Grey Knights, but they never had those to begin with and wouldn't feel right even if they did. If I had to choose only one codex to game with I think I would have a hard time choosing between IG and vanilla Marines.

But....
Something like the Flames of War system for choosing an IG army wouldn't look out of place. Having a core company (with it's own rules) and the option of adding on support units from the core's own regiment or from divisional support units (which may have their own rules, or may be generic) is actually quite an appealing idea.....

[me_in_japan]

I like a nice storytelling mission, but I think there also has to be a fair chance for either side to "win", although that could mean "escape off the table edge" or "have your HQ survive 5 turns" or whatever. Forgone conclusions aren't much good for anybody, although I suspect I'm preaching to the choir on this one.

[Colonel Voss]

I will agree to disagree with you Prim. I don't know what books you have looked at, so I can't really say. For me, I have a wide variety of books and I find that my fallschirmjager would play far differently than a grenadier company or an SS-Grenadier. Then there are the different special lists like the security company, the reserve and regular pioneer companies, bodengstang and festung grenadiers, and assault companies, and more and that is just the German lists. A French infantry company will play different to a german company which is also different to the Greek company and the Finnish light infantry company. Add in the horde lists like the Russians, Poles, Italians and Romanians, each with their own units and you start to get a larger picture and ideas abound. Add in the variety of tank companies, recon companies, motorised and mechanised infantry with various artillery and special support and the national rules and you really do get, IMO, a huge variety.

This doesn't mean that I don't think the codex is bad. I think it is a solid book that is well thought out and works well for what niche it is intended to fill. Just to me FoW has done what I wanted the IG to be. That has drained my enthusiasm for playing them, though I still love to read about them and I will write about them too. When I put my fire sale up, I nearly put them up too but held off. Maybe a future addition will grab my attention or something special will make me want to get them out and play them again.

But if I want to stay in 40k, I need to embrace something new of the grim dark future. While I enjoy my demons and they do inspire me to a level of mischievousness and maniacal laughter, a primary army they are not. A slow building, high quality painted army that comes out to play sometimes is what they are and should be.

So if I am to stay in 40k as a strong presence, I need to find a new primary army