New shooting rules.

[Admiral-Badruck]

Anyone seen the FAQs on shooting range, the wound pool and removing models? I think it will have a significant impact on the game, so I've made this thread for us to talk about it a bit.

First, I want to get clear how it works because I'm honestly not 100% on it. When you shoot you cannot pull models out of the target unit that are out of range of your guns. Is this resolved for each model or can you remove models from the furthest that any one guy can reach?

For example, 5 Warp Spiders (12" range guns) are shooting 5 Space Marines. The two Spiders in the front are 10" away from the 2 closest Marines and 11" from the 3 Marines in the back row. The other 3 Spiders are exactly 12" from the front 2 Marines. If it is resolved invidually, the back Spiders can't hit the back Marines. If it is done as a group, then all the Marines should be able to be removed as casualties.

Or have I got this wrong entirely?

[Primarch]

It is done as a group, so if any of you guns have range, then every target can be hit. In your example every marine could be wounded. So long as your guns are in range to hit one enemy model then you can fire them. You use the longest range gun in the unit to determine which enemy models can be hit.

[Admiral-Badruck]

Don't think so pretty sure that's what the FAQ was clarifying. Do you have a page number you can reference which says that if any gun has range then every model in the target unit can be hit and have wounds allocated to it? This FAQ says specifically that if half the target unit lays outside of max firing range the wounds can't be allocated to those models which are out of range.

[Primarch]

The core rulebook says that so long as a model was within range of the enemy to be shot at, then it remains in range for the entire shooting step. (core rules - p16)
The FAQ clarfies that if a model was never in range of any gun, then it can never be in range. (FAQ - p3)

So, if you have a unit shooting bolters (24") and a heavy bolter (36") at an enemy unit, then any model that was in range of the heavy bolter can be wounded.

There is no mention of working out which models can be hit based on individual guns or ranges. Similarly, the rules for being out of sight (also p16). If you are in range of any model and in line of sight of any model you can be hit. Doing it any other way would mean resolving all shooting on a one to one basis as you would need to calculate LoS and Range for every single shot.

[Admiral-Badruck]

The FAQ does not say specific guns, but if you read the FAQ again. The enemy squad is referred to as unit, and the shooting unit is referred to as models, so a model with a bolter can not kill a model outside of its range because a different model has a longer range... Also, your references have nothing to do with the question that is in question here..
You don not have to resolve shots one at time, but roll all the dice and wounds but only the models of the enemy unit that was in range of that weapon can be killed.. Makes real good sense.

[Primarch]

The FAQ does not say specific guns, but if you read the FAQ again. The enemy squad is referred to as unit, and the shooting unit is referred to as models, so a model with a bolter can not kill a model outside of its range because a different model has a longer range... Also, your references have nothing to do with the question that is in question here..
You don not have to resolve shots one at time, but roll all the dice and wounds but only the models of the enemy unit that was in range of that weapon can be killed.. Makes real good sense.

You mean the references to the rules for being in range aren't relevant to being in range? Hmm, ok. Which page of the rule book should I be looking at?

Let's go through this step by step shall we?
From the shooting sequence on Page 12.
Step 1. Nominate unit to shoot.
Step 2. Choose a target. - At this stage you check the range and line of sight. If you aren't in range of ANY visible enemy models, you cannot shoot. (Last paragraph Page 12)
Step 3. Roll to hit
Step 4. Roll to wound
Step 5. Allocate wounds and roll saves.

Assuming everything was in range to begin with, there is no issue. But since this discussion is about what to do if something is out of range then we have to look at that rule.

Page 16 - Out of Range
As long as a model was in range of the enemy when to hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model is now out of range.

And let's look at the FAQ

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e. half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half are not)? (p15)
A: No.

(It doesn't help that GW didn't proof read it, there should be an 'of' between range and any and the rules are on page 16, not 15). Note that they say "models'" not "model's" meaning the possessive of the plural form i.e. not an individual model, but the group as a whole.

What does this tell us to do?
The way I read it:
Was the model in range of any of the guns when the to hit roll was made?
Yes - It can be hit by any of the attacks rolled against the unit. (Page 16)
No - It cannot be hit by any of the attacks rolled against the unit. (FAQ)

Imagine you have two units, lets say marines and IG, both are lined up facing each other with 1" between the back of each model's base.
MMMMMMMMMM - 14" - GGGGGGGGGG
The rear most marine can only hit the front guard, but the front marine can hit all the guards.
The simplest way to resolve it is to say that as the front marine can hit everyone then everyone can be hit by all the marines.
What you are proposing is that as not every marine can hit every guard you will have to work out each shot as a unique attack and determine wounds individually. This adds a whole extra degree of complexity to the game and probably an extra step where you need to re-measure the ranges to determine which of the target unit is still in range.

[me_in_japan]

I'm not sure I get this question. As firing is resolved as a squad, as long as the furthest away enemy unit-member is within range of the closest firing unit-member then he can be killed, yes? At no point in the rules does it say that shots are fired in order from the closest firing model to the farthest, no? I get that casualties are removed closest-to-farthest, but who's to say that the shot that killed the nearest enemy was fired by the guy at the front of the firing unit?

I'd appreciate clarification on whether I'm reading this wrong. Ta in advance

[ashmie]

I get what's being debated here. It's a can of worms isn't it.
Basically you can't hit what's out of range but this adds complications when determining where you are measuring from and to.
Front of the unit? I've got a feeling me and Satoru used to play some home brew rules where we measured the range of each model to each model. This is fine with skirmishes but will slow a bigger point game down.
Hmmm, ponder.

[Konrad]

I'm not sure I get this question. As firing is resolved as a squad, as long as the furthest away enemy unit-member is within range of the closest firing unit-member then he can be killed, yes? At no point in the rules does it say that shots are fired in order from the closest firing model to the farthest, no? I get that casualties are removed closest-to-farthest, but who's to say that the shot that killed the nearest enemy was fired by the guy at the front of the firing unit?

I'd appreciate clarification on whether I'm reading this wrong. Ta in advance

It seems to be just restating the rules for folks who are still used to the old casualty removal from the previous edition. If the model is not in range of any of the groups of shooters it cannot be taken as a casualty. If it is in range of the group of shooters doing the shooting it can be, provided it is the nearest model to the shooting unit. Right? I don't see the difference between the rulebook and the FAQ answer. Just a clarification, not errata or an amendment.
So boyz and gurlz, what did we learn today? Shoot your short ranged stuff first, then let them have it with the Big Shootaz.

[The Underdweller]

So boyz and gurlz, what did we learn today? Shoot your short ranged stuff first, then let them have it with the Big Shootaz.

Actually, the rules say that "all of the models in the unit fire at the same time regardless of whether or not all of the dice are rolled together." (p 13) - so you can allocated the wounds made with your Big Shootaz first if you want them to affect the guys at the front of the unit, and then the short ranged stuff will still affect any guys who were in range of the Big Shootaz, as long as the shorter ranged stuff was in range to hit the front guys.

I think?