NagoyaHammer.com

I just had a thought. I was looking through the old eldar stuff from Rogue Trader, and thinking "wow, this is very different from current Eldar." but then I thought some more.

There was a huge jump in Eldar development during the early days of RT. When the Compilation/Compendium came out, suddenly Eldar went from "um, kinda, piratey space elves..." to craftworlds, aspect warriors, farseers, harlequins and all the other stuff we know and love about our pointy eared friends today. They were shown a little more love 5 or 6 years later in the 2nd ed codex, with the addition of a couple of new aspects...

But then, somehow, eldar development just...stopped.

I don't have my (1996) 2nd ed codex handy (Stu's got it...) but from memory, I'm pretty sure if you compare it to the current (2006) codex you end up with this:

In the current codex:
Lordy types: 6 phoenix lords, Eldrad, Avatar, Farseer, Warlock, Autarch, Yriel
8 Aspects: Scorps, Banshees, Dragons, Spiders, Hawks, Reapers, Spears, Avengers
Others: Guardians (storm and regular), Harleys, Scouts, Jetbikes, Wraithguard
Heavy stuff: Vypers, Support Weapons, Wraithlord, War Walker, Wave Serpent, Falcon, Fire Prism

In the 2nd ed codex:
All of the above except Autarchs (and, by extension, Yriel, altho he is in the fluff)
PLUS: pirates (squad and HQ) and dragon-riding exodites (squads and HQ) AND (ahahah) Solitaires...

If I'm wrong on any of the above then by all means call me on it (Stu...), but so far as I can tell, the Eldar have some claim to being the least developed race in the past 15 years. Heck, in that time 3 entire new species have been introduced! Surely GW coulda thrown us a coupla new units?

So, I was wondering? Is it just Eldar? I dont have enough familiarity with the various other races to say whether or not theyre as stagnant as the pointy ears, but I'm sure you all know the development history of your respective armies. How has your army changed since its introduction to the game? Answers on a postcard, plz...

5th Edition has seen a major change in all of the armies. Ramping up of new units and expanding of the lists. The guard was more or less the same from 2nd-4th ed Codexes. In fact we lost a little with the primus psycher. Space Marines, Dark Angels, Chaos and Blood Angels are all the same or minor changes. Orks are a bit different as they did have a reimage in 3rd.

Well, I couldn't find any game rules for Falcons, Fire Prisms, Wave Serpents or Night Spinners in the old dex.

As far as other armies getting more units...
4th - 5th ed Space Marines gained Sternguard and Vanguard, Land Speeder Storms, Land Raider Redeemers and Thunderfire Cannons.
3rd - 5th IG gained more Russ Variants, more artillery units, hellhound variants, armoured sentinels, primaris psyker and battle psykers, and penal troops (though I believe back in RT you could use them).
In all honesty, the "new" units are usually just variations on an existing model or unit. for example in the 4th ed marine book, you could take veterans and make them shooty or choppy. Now you have two units in the book which are shooty or choppy respectively. The Thunderfire launcher bears a resemblance to the old Thudd Gun. Even the new Master of the Forge (ie a techmarine with slightly better stats) can take a Conversion Beamer. Yeah, very new and original.

Now compare your Eldar Dex to the Dark Eldar Dex, which had exactly zero new units added to it in 4th ed and 5th ed (so far). You did get new kits last time round dont forget.
You'll get your turn eventually.

Sigh, my sig is so accurate.

Prim wrote:Sigh, my sig is so accurate.

I wasnt complaining, particularly. I was just wondering, genuinely, if there was so little innovation in the other codexes, too. I think people assume that questions from me (or eldar players in general) are complaints. I wuz just asking, out of curiousity, like...

I wrote: So, I was wondering? Is it just Eldar? I dont have enough familiarity with the various other races to say whether or not theyre as stagnant as the pointy ears, but I'm sure you all know the development history of your respective armies. How has your army changed since its introduction to the game? Answers on a postcard, plz...

And without further ado, some responses...

5th Edition has seen a major change in all of the armies.

Except Chaos Marines, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Dark Angels, Necrons, Tau, Witch Hunters, Daemon hunters, and Black Templars, none of whom have had a new codex since 4th ed, presumably...

Well, I couldn't find any game rules for Falcons, Fire Prisms, Wave Serpents or Night Spinners in the old dex.

Stu said that there are no tanks in the 2nd ed eldar codex, which I find odd, (not that I think he's fibbing) but I definitely owned a Fire Prism and a Wave Serpent long before I came to Japan and started playing again here, and I stopped playing in Scotland during 2nd ed. (I have never played 3rd ed, and only came back to the game at the end of 4th ed.) Is it possible the tanks were in White Dwarf or something? Or maybe I cut out their datafaxes from the codex. Maybe they were a between-codexes addition. I dunno. I do remember scratch building a Falcon many years ago and basing it off the old Epic one, as there was no 40k model at the time.

The exception to the above is, obviously, Night Spinners, which were just "released" a few months ago. Not that they hadnt already been available for years from FW, and even longer in Epic. Still, OK, a new eldar unit. right-o.

Now compare your Eldar Dex to the Dark Eldar Dex,

Ah, but looking at the big picture, From 2nd ed to 5th ed, Dark Eldar went from "not existing" to "full codex army", albeit not a very good one. Thats a lot of new units added, if you look at it that way. Likewise Tau and Crons.

...which had exactly zero new units added to it in 4th ed and 5th ed (so far). You did get new kits last time round dont forget.

Between 2nd and 4th ed, Eldar got Autarchs added, and pirates and exodites taken away (and a transient Arriana SeerLady who came and went during 3rd ed...), and as with Dark eldar, nothing yet in 5th. The addition of new sculpts is very welcome, but adds nothing to the army in terms of fluff or tactics.

You'll get your turn eventually.

Aye, after Dark Eldar, Witch hunters, Daemon hunters, Tau, Crons, or even Dark Angels or Black Templars? Theyve all been waiting even longer that the Eldar (well, as long as, in the case of DA or BT). I'm not saying Eldar are alone in their lack-of-new-stuff, that was the whole point of the thread. It aint a complaint - its an information pooling resource.

The basic question that this thread boils down to is:

Do GW even make new stuff anymore? Or do they just recycle?

Do they make new stuff?

Yes, in a way. Using the Blood Angels 'dex as an example because it is shiny and new. They make new varieties of units: Sanguinary Guard (variant on Vanguard/Assault Marines), they make new units/models: Storm Raven gunships and they make new characters who unlock army builds or grant special rules: Gabriel Seth. Likewise, Nids got a lot of new stuff.
They do limit themselves a little in that they usually dont drastically alter the units in an army, or add too much new stuff at once. The majority of units stay roughly the same. This also fits with the fluff a bit better. Where were the marines storing all those old thunderfire cannons up till 5th ed anyway. New units have to make some kind of sense within the army, they cant just add stuff that doesnt fit.
I think that some dexes have changed a lot of units or added a lot, such as the aforementioned nids whilst some have just been tweaked like the marine dex.
I think most books fall into one of two categories. There are the range updates (like Eldar) where they release new models to replace the older ones and then there are the army updates (like Nids) where they add a lot to the army but leave the old models alone. A few fall across both categories, the IG would be an example. The Leman Russ was the oldest kit in production before the update.

As usual, a very reasonable and informed response from Primarch.

I think most books fall into one of two categories. There are the range updates (like Eldar) where they release new models to replace the older ones and then there are the army updates (like Nids) where they add a lot to the army but leave the old models alone. A few fall across both categories, the IG would be an example.

A question (and a fairly pointless one, at that...)

As Eldar have had their shotty at the "range update" (and v nice it was too), what do you think they need for an "army update"? i.e. what does the Eldar dex lack?

For what its worth, I reckon any of the following would be nice:

A somewhat harder hitting Aspect Warrior. Charging Bulls, if you like.

A stealth unit that likes assault. I know scorps kinda do this, but im thinking more chameleonic stalkers.

Exodites (yeah, y'all saw that coming...)

Possibly an aspect of tank driving. If Aspect Warriors embody the various elements of the war god, then logically there should be an aspect of tank driving. Itd be a bugger to actually implement, mind you.

A proper assault tank. With assault doors n stuff. In the front. Its bloody embarrasing being unable to charge out of a moving vehicle, and even worse not having enough move to charge someone at the front of your tank cos the only door's in the back. Eldar are supposed to be the fast, nimble army, for goodness' sake.

Actually, how about no doors at all? How about a warp portal in the front? Anything up to about an Avatar/Vyper can be held in reserve, then come on through the portal. Of course, if the tank gets popped, they canny come on. If you had two, you could run guys in one and out the other. Thatd rock! (I believe theres something like this in Epic, but ToD would know better n me. I think its a super heavy, too...)

Anyway, thats my brain fart for today. What do you think? What do Eldar need to make em contenders again? Or how about your own pet army? What do they need to make em rock?

To be honest, I cant see them introducing new aspect warriors anytime soon. New guardian units or exodites would be more likely. An assault tank would make banshees/scorps/space clowns a very scary prospect indeed. I may have to buy Eldar if they do....