Kill Team 2021

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The Other Dave
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Kill Team 2021

Post by The Other Dave » Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:46 am

I guess since release is imminent we ought to make a dedicated thread!

There's a new edition of Kill Team coming out, and it looks like a complete overhaul, rather than a "skirmishification" of the standard 40K rules like the previous edition was. And it looks really strong!

The official site is here.

There's going to be a limited-run starter box with Death Korps of Krieg and Ork Kommandos, and the rulebooks (one for rules and one for army lists) will also be available separately, along with the various widgets and cards and such. They say the (very nice looking) terrain will also be made available separately some time after launch too.

I'm posting this now because the rules embargo has lifted and people who got preview copies are putting their various walkthroughs up.

Can You Roll a Crit's is here. Guerilla Miniatures (as they do) have a full walkthrough of the rules, plus a playthrough, up on their YouTube channel here. I'm sure there are others, but those two channels are my usual go-to.
Edit: Here's Goonhammer's, very nice as usual.

It'll all look pretty familiar to anyone who's played WarCry, which is 100% a good thing in my book. I'm pretty excited to give it a go - it looks like it has the cinematic back-and-forth of WarCry with a bit more crunch and appears to have taken to heart lessons learned from the weaknesses of both KT 8th edition and WarCry. Judging from the Death Korps and Kommandos, it looks like each faction should be getting quite a bit of tactical depth (knock on wood)
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Re: Kill Team 2021

Post by Jye Nicolson » Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:08 pm

"To box or not to box" is going to haunt me all week.

While you're in for the Compendium either way, it looks like the accessories are pretty essential*, and the value you get for the difference between Book + Accessories + Cards and the box seems pretty compelling.

But I'd already decided to be sensible and not buy anything that will take up space.

But I'd probably play the Orks for a laugh, I could always use another board and the Ork terrain is so sweet.

But I'm already at my limit of how much stuff I can take to game days, and all I'd get from swapping Warcry pieces out for Ork terrain is a bit of variety at the cost of being harder to pack.

But I could probably get it to *Plamojuku*, I wonder if anyone out there is interested in playing and may have indeed started this thread 🤔

It's going to be that kind of week.

* You could go book only by making your own barricades, using proxies or notes instead of cards/tokens, and just using a tape measure instead of the templates. But the first two feel like effort :lol:

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Re: Kill Team 2021

Post by Primarch » Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:53 pm

Jye Nicolson wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:08 pm
"To box or not to box" is going to haunt me all week.
I know that feeling. I would really like to get the new Krieg minis and the new Orks look awesome too. And while the game itself does sound cool, the amount of extra stuff like cards, tokens, measuring doodads and other whatnots is actually a little off-putting if you have to get them all separately. That said, the core box probably won't be cheap given the amount of stuff crammed into it.

Choices, choices. :lol:
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The Other Dave
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Re: Kill Team 2021

Post by The Other Dave » Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:21 am

I'm going to get the accessories set because it looks like the tokens are nigh-necessary in play and I feel like painting up the gauges in rusty gunge to go with my plague marines, but aside from that it'll just be the books. I may wait on the cards - it looks like they're mostly used in matched play? But really I don't have much I need to buy hobby-wise for the next little bit, so I can probably splurge a little.

On the rules front, I did notice that plague marines are 4" move, which makes me sad. :lol:
Jye Nicolson wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:08 pm
But I could probably get it to *Plamojuku*, I wonder if anyone out there is interested in playing and may have indeed started this thread 🤔
In principle, yeah, especially if we can get some other folks interested! Since we're probably going to be easing into the "those couple months after everything is released and before the next season starts" doldrums in Underworlds, it could be a nice change of pace.
Feel free to call me Dave!
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Miniatures painted in 2023: 252
Miniatures painted in 2024:
Epic scale: 9 vehicles, 56 stands of infantry, a whole buncha terrain
32mm-ish: 3 infantry

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Re: Kill Team 2021

Post by me_in_japan » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:26 am

Hmmn.

The way this game has been handled has actually made me a bit sad. Not for the game itself, which seems pretty solid, but for how clearly it demonstrates how disinterested GW are in gamers like me (ie ones with already established collections who may or may not play games by other manufacturers).

My thoughts on the game, as more info came out went basically like this:

Huh, look at that. New Kill Team coming.
Oh, hey! Those rules look interesting. I’m in!
Sweet, those rules look good! Yay! My Eldar live again!
Krieg and Orks in the box? Cool. Not marines is nice.
Hmmn. That’s a bunch of stuff in the box. Hope you don’t need it all.
Oh. You do need it all. And another book?
How much?
Damn.

It really puts me in a lesser-of-two-evils decision, which is hardly the state I should be in when getting hyped for a new release. I can either buy a probably expensive box set + compendium and get two factions and a bunch of terrain I don’t need (the minis and terrain in the box are a disincentive for me, as I have zero interest in playing orks or krieg, and I just don’t need more terrain. They’d only take up space.) But, if I “just” buy the book I then need to buy the other book*, templates, counters and cards, which I strongly suspect will add up to very near the price of the main box. And that leads to feelings of getting less value for money than folks who want to play Krieg/Orks. Bad feels.

Overall, I feel a bit let down by this. I was genuinely interested in a new Kill Team - I’m pretty desperate for a way to use my 40k minis again, since I don’t see myself playing actual 40k in the near future. All I was looking for was a skirmish system that let me use my stuff, wrapped up in a book. Twenty, maybe twenty-five quid, bob’s yer uncle. But no. GW had to make the buy in five times what it needed to be. Because of course they did. I realise Stargrave etc exist, but I really want to play my Eldar as Eldar, yknow? (ok, Aeldari, but whatevs 🙄). I know I can make my own templates and counters, and probably will, but at that point I’m being pushed further and further away from “official” products, and it’s only a skip and a jump from there to our Russian comrades. Oftentimes I don’t have a problem with this, but I feel that GW took an enthusiastic potential customer and actively turned him against their product. Why would you do that?

Overall, instead of what could’ve been “yay!” I feel very “oh.” about this game. I guess that’ll teach me not to get excited about new products? 🤷🏻‍♂️

*why did they have two books? I mean, why is the other book another book, since the huge majority of players are going to need it, assuming the huge majority aren’t going to play Krieg or orks? Just make the main book bigger, or make em a package deal if it’s a binding issue or summat.
current (2019) hobby interests
eh, y'know. Stuff, and things

Wow. And then Corona happened. Just....crickets, all the way through to 2023...

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The Other Dave
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Re: Kill Team 2021

Post by The Other Dave » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:41 am

me_in_japan wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:26 am
*why did they have two books? I mean, why is the other book another book, since the huge majority of players are going to need it, assuming the huge majority aren’t going to play Krieg or orks? Just make the main book bigger, or make em a package deal if it’s a binding issue or summat. Buying an extra product
Personally I wish they'd do this kind of thing more - the previous edition's core book was literally half faction rules, and of course the 40K and AoS core books are about 75% fluff. Makes things very hard to cart around, and having the rule book and army books separate makes expansion easier. And I don't think you really do need everything in the box, or really anything besides the books - counters are convenient, but that's true of any game that tracks status effects, and likewise with the measuring gauges.

I mean, I see your point in general, but I think it sounds like the issue is mostly that the core box is too much of a loss leader, which makes getting into the game via just the books look unattractive by comparison. Which is exactly how loss leaders are meant to work, and how GW has been doing business since the release of 40K 2nd edition.
Feel free to call me Dave!
-----
Miniatures painted in 2023: 252
Miniatures painted in 2024:
Epic scale: 9 vehicles, 56 stands of infantry, a whole buncha terrain
32mm-ish: 3 infantry

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Re: Kill Team 2021

Post by Primarch » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:50 am

I can certainly identify with this:
me_in_japan wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:26 am
All I was looking for was a skirmish system that let me use my stuff, wrapped up in a book. Twenty, maybe twenty-five quid, bob’s yer uncle.
I haven't been buying much new Aos/40K 9th stuff from GW, but from the outside looking in, I get the feeling that they are really overdoing it with the extras. For a new release, you generally get a Codex, 1 new character (insert Primaris Lieutenant on Tactical Rocktm here), themed dice, cards, campaign book, other campaign book that contains different rules and, of course, three ways to play. It looks like GW has decided that players like peripherals enough to spend a fair chunk on them.

As much as the new KT rules look interesting enough, the real draw of the release for me is the DKoK. I like the Ork minis and wouldn't mind painting them up, so for me the box set has some value. I can certainly see M_i_J's point though. For the amount of stuff you'd need to pick up, there probably isn't a lot of difference between buying a whole heap of stuff you don't want and just getting what you need.
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Re: Kill Team 2021

Post by Jye Nicolson » Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:26 am

Primarch wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:50 am
As much as the new KT rules look interesting enough, the real draw of the release for me is the DKoK. I like the Ork minis and wouldn't mind painting them up, so for me the box set has some value. I can certainly see M_i_J's point though. For the amount of stuff you'd need to pick up, there probably isn't a lot of difference between buying a whole heap of stuff you don't want and just getting what you need.

Based on the leak I've seen the difference would be about $105 USD between the box and the Book + Accessories + Cards. $115 if you skip the cards, which look the most skippable. I think you could skip the accessories too, especially if you can just 3D print the barricades or have good enough tokens to repurpose or whatever, I'm just too lazy for that.

But Dave's got to the heart of it - it's just that like Indomitus, Dominion (and honestly KT1, or even Warcry) the core box is such an absurdly good deal relative to normal prices that $105 for what you get looks *great* even with the logistical challenges of dealing with all the plastic. It's tough to fight that psychology, even if it's probably smarter to wait and pay the less efficient price for the bits you'll *actually* use.

(I'm ignoring the cost of the Compendium but set your watch for the discourse around Compendium 2022 next year :lol: )

Anyway, if I cave and you don't, I'll happily trade you the DKoK.

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Re: Kill Team 2021

Post by Jye Nicolson » Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:31 am

me_in_japan wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:26 am

*why did they have two books? I mean, why is the other book another book, since the huge majority of players are going to need it, assuming the huge majority aren’t going to play Krieg or orks? Just make the main book bigger, or make em a package deal if it’s a binding issue or summat.
I kind of alluded to this with the "Compendium 2022" crack above but I'm speculating there may be a reason they've isolated the stuff that gets few if any revisions during the life of an edition from the stuff they're much more likely to want to update. Granted I don't think KT will get (or need) the kind of rebalancing attention that 40K and AOS get but given they're not even using points fire teams and fighter cards are the levers they have to pull if they want to make any balance changes. They might release new compendiums at later dates to do a single book update of the whole game (possibly including collating any releases that have come out in the meantime).

Pure speculation but that's what I'd see as the *advantage* of the structure.

On the subject of the Compendium, I'll definitely buy one because I have a *lot* of Kill Teams from the last go around (when I was telling myself it was OK to get lots of teams because at least I wasn't getting full 40K armies :lol: ). But I think the amount of info you need *per team* is probably not that great, if you were only planning to play one team you could probably skip buying the book and get the needed details from a friend (and in practice we'll probably all end up using Battlescribe for it anyway).

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Re: Kill Team 2021

Post by Karantu » Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:01 am

Yikes, looking at the leaks the new Kill Team has roughly a 20k yen entry point given you already own models and dice. If you skimp on the tokens and measuring tools it's 14k yen but that still seems a little bit of a rough sell to try and rope someone into wargaming. I just want the initial investment to be low enough to be able to easily convince someone new to get the rulebook + a box of models for a reasonable amount.

I was thinking about getting the box set since I like all the models it but I'm still stuck on this damn fence. It seems like its going to be around 30k yen which was what the Warcry Catacombs box was.

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