9e army composition query

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Jye Nicolson
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Re: 9e army composition query

Post by Jye Nicolson » Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:30 pm

me_in_japan wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:57 am
I have to ask, is completely hosing an entire army with a new codex release normal these days in 40k, or am I just incredibly unlucky with my army choices? I mean, I could handle a few units needing a few new guns, or maybe shifting from Troops to Fast Attack or something, but seriously, I've had 3 whole armies shotgunned out from under me, and every time I start looking into it it just gives me the twitchy-eye.
Please ignore if this was a rhetorical question, you know I just love to type into forum textboxes. I also don't mean to defend Games Workshop who are big enough, ugly enough and profitable enough to look after themselves, but like any hair splitting internet geek I have my own nuanced view on what of their things are bad and wrong :lol:

Anyway short answer, no, generally what is *playable* does not change that much with new codexes in the modern era.

What is *good* changes frequently, and contrary to general prejudice, not simply to the newest models. So having re-started in 8th I have lost zero models from playability and been all too frequently provoked to buy *old* models because the wheel of buffs landed on Falcons and Space Marine Attack Bikes of all things. If anything GW's reluctance to stop selling Firstborn marines and support nearly everything they've ever had in some respect is a problem for the Space Marine Codex which has terrible internal balance.

There are exceptions:

- The great 7th --> 8th divide. I came back too late to be familiar with this but I understand late 7th was pretty wild and 8th was happy to slaughter a lot of sacred cows. It's entirely possible armies that worked in the Indexes in early 8th stopped working as Codexes came out. Even this is 5+ years ago though, but if you were out of the game for this transition, it's likely this had a bigger effect on what you came back to than the 9th Codexes.

- An army is spun out as its own thing when it was previously a subfaction. I'm not sure this has actually happened without also being part of the 7th --> 8th transition but we will see it soon with World Eaters and I fully expect they will lose options.

- The minis are not sold *at all* anymore. This is where Legends comes in. This is actually good for casual play - the units vanish from the Codex but they are in a free PDF, and the fact you can't use them in tournaments is not very relevant for most of us (meanwhile tournaments don't have to deal with recast Chaplain Dreadnaughts everywhere because they're accidentally busted even though you can't actually buy them). However they also don't really get updated, so over time those rules will probably interact oddly with whatever's current. They are playable though.

- You bought the minis from Forge World. I am pretty sure GW proper has minimal loyalty to the Forge World back catalogue - it might be the same company but as I understand it very different studios. For the most part Forge World rules support is actually getting better and given how extensive their Legends PDF is I think there is pretty good coverage of the rules *existing* but ultimately I think they're not first class citizens.

I think you have been a bit unlucky in that you have been hit by the Death Guard getting split out so you unexpectedly find yourself the owner of two armies, and the Corsairs being (AFAICT) firmly in the Forge World bucket (though to be fair the datasheets I've seen look super easy to use as long as your opponent is OK with Legends).

Drukhari I'm afraid I'm not sure what the issue is. I appreciate there were army compositions you had that don't work now, but Drukhari are so good and so flexible in how they can put together a force I'm really quite sure there are many great lists you can put together with any arbitrary assortment of models. It might be a bit tougher at Combat Patrol size because you only get one Patrol, but even then you can mix in Wyches and Haemonculi into a Kabal detachment and not switch off detachment rules (or Kabal into a Wych detachment or whatever). Drukhari are nuts!

Mattb
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Re: 9e army composition query

Post by Mattb » Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:49 am

me_in_japan wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:57 am
.
I have to ask, is completely hosing an entire army with a new codex release normal these days in 40k, or am I just incredibly unlucky with my army choices? I mean, I could handle a few units needing a few new guns, or maybe shifting from Troops to Fast Attack or something, but seriously, I've had 3 whole armies shotgunned out from under me, and every time I start looking into it it just gives me the twitchy-eye.
Oh don't worry, I wouldn't say it's that bad - every unit you own is completely usable and playable in some fasion. Either as pure Chaos Marines, pure Death Guard, or a mix of the two allied together. Actually, a force of Death Guard backed up by a force of renegade Nurgle Chaos Marine bikers and raptors sounds like it would make for a really fun and narrative army! Also with the Dark Eldar: they can have some interesting options with patrols, but you don't have to do this. You can run all of your stuff as one big force the same way you would any other army if you like.

The corsairs are more of a shame, but that was mostly due to forgeworld downsizing more than anything else (R.I.P. Elysians :cry:). But even then, with the legends PDF you can still find rules for running them - I actually didn't realise they could slot into a Craftworlds army though, so that's pretty cool!

Obviously you won't be smashing the tournament scene, but you'll be completely fine for the fun, casual games we usually play on games day. I'd be happy to play a game with points so you can have units of 7 plague Marines and I can run units of 6 Emperor's Children Marines. :lol:

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me_in_japan
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Re: 9e army composition query

Post by me_in_japan » Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:39 am

cheers, Matt :)

I suppose I just need to stop worrying about what I can't do, and start feeling better about what I can do. As you say, it's not like I'm bothered about the tournament scene, and everybody up in Nagoya is pretty decent re fudging things a bit, so 7 man squads aren't really off the books. I'll bash together some lists and see if I can come up with something fun for each of my armies.

Thanks all for the input. Much obliged :)
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Konrad
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Re: 9e army composition query

Post by Konrad » Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:42 pm

The Other Dave wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:55 am
Fundamentally, with 8th edition on especially, they've moved to a very strong "armies are made only of models that we currently sell" stance, combined with a "having, nay, getting to collect a bunch of new units when the new edition / codex comes out is a feature and not a bug" mentality, meaning that people with big legacy armies will, yes, generally find that lots of their stuff is unusable especially if it was a lot of models that might have been in the rules but never got official non-FW releases (like, say, death guard anything-but-plague-marines-and-terminators, or, well, corsairs at all). GW wants you to see now having two half-armies instead of one full one as an opportunity instead of a problem (you get to collect and paint new stuff to flesh out both your death guard and your non-death-guard plague marines into full legal armies, probably using some of the cool new sculpts they just happen to have, "enjoying collecting and painting" being sort of something they want to encourage in the customer base).

(Which is not to excuse the behavior of course, I can see how it would be frustrating, but it's definitely where GW is coming from.)
This. You could always just play Grimdark Future! :lol: Sorry. I know your pain. It hurts to have your beautifully (and in your case masterfully) painted and crafted toys get consigned to oblivion. I used to play Squats back in the day after all. So just be patient. The Nurgle Bikers will be back in 2045. :D Of course they will be completely different looking and you won't really be able to use the old bikes as proxies. The rules will constantly be changing to push new toys, nothing new there.
...and now his Head was full of nothing but Inchantments, Quarrels, Battles, Challenges, Wounds, Complaints, Amours, and abundance of Stuff and Impossibilities.....
Cervantes, Don Quixote

Jye Nicolson
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Re: 9e army composition query

Post by Jye Nicolson » Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:42 am

Konrad wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:42 pm
This. You could always just play Grimdark Future! :lol: Sorry. I know your pain. It hurts to have your beautifully (and in your case masterfully) painted and crafted toys get consigned to oblivion. I used to play Squats back in the day after all. So just be patient. The Nurgle Bikers will be back in 2045. :D Of course they will be completely different looking and you won't really be able to use the old bikes as proxies. The rules will constantly be changing to push new toys, nothing new there.
Hear me out: what if this is just an opportunity to kitbash Land Fortresses and Sagitaurs for dual use in 40k and Gorkamorka?

(The good news for MiJ is it seems like Matt said all of his models are playable in 9th ed, even if any dreams of winning the London Grand Tourney may have been dashed. They're not the same vintage as the Squats.

Squats in Necromunda though...🤔)

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