Interested in starting Vampire counts (or higheldar)

[Primarch]

aww really? I was hoping for a whole coven of vampires to lead my undead. So is it 25% lords, 25% characters.. e.t.c or 25% for all characters (lords and heros )? If possible I would like to have about 4 -5 vampires plus bloodknights eventually,?

For 1 vamp lord and 4 vamp heroes, you're looking at just over 600 points without any upgrades. Assuming you are playing a 2000 point game, that would leave you with 400 points to make them better spell casters, give them weapons or armour, put them on a monster etc. You then have to spend 500 points on your core choices, which leaves 500 for specials/rare. 5 Blood Knights with command will run to over 300 points.
Basically you'd have around 800 points for units and spend 1300 for 5 vamp characters and 5 vamp cavalry. Individually they're all very tough, but you will lose every combat due to not having enough models on the field. VC infantry (with the exception of Grave Guard) are weak and ineffectual.

[Admiral-Badruck]

well this thread got complex quick... I am out of here...

[jus]

Individually they're all very tough, but you will lose every combat due to not having enough models on the field

Ouch! That doesn't sound too fun. What then could be done to the list that would give it the primarch's seal of approval? beef the units numbers with raise spells? Maybe 4 vampire characters or ...3 and alot more grave guard? double the number of bloodknights perhaps?

[Colonel Voss]

I'm no expert, but looking at what you want, I would say would be a good 3,000 pnt goal. At that level you can put all of those things in and add a few units of skellies and maybe a zombie tarpit.

At lower points, dropping a few vampires to maybe one or two and add a necromancer in plus a more fleshed out army would work well. 25% minimum core should be just that, minimum. Vampire counts as far as i can see need a few tar pits. Get an enemy unit stuck in and continue to raise up fresh troops can effectively take a unit out of the game for good, letting the rest of your army either destroy his weaker units or letting you get a stronger unit into the flanks (if it is still possible, maybe a second unit of zombies can be raise up in the rear for even more fun.

[Primarch]

I'm no expert, but looking at what you want, I would say would be a good 3,000 pnt goal

I agree, if you want to go heavy on the Vampires, you need a bigger game. The VC book has some of the most expensive characters in the game. Its possible to spend over 700 points on 1 lord. Necromancers are a cheaper option in smaller games and since they can CHOOSE their spells, they dont suffer from the drawback of no spell duplication in the army. Plus they can ride a corpse cart which is great.

25% minimum core should be just that, minimum.

You'll need to fill the 25% minimum with skeletons and ghouls. So long as you have a lord with necromantic magic you can create zombie units at will, but you cant create skellies or ghouls, only add more models. Dire Wolves, Bat Swarms and Corpse Carts dont count towards your minimum core requirements sadly.
At the 2000 point level this means you will need 60 or so skeletons and ghouls. Dont take any more of these units than you have to. You can make them bigger as they game goes on.

[me_in_japan]

thats what i dont like about WHFB. You come in hoping for an elite army, and get told that youre basically gonna have to buy and paint a huuuuuuuge horde of disposable nobodies, and then have 2 cool guys to back em up. Surely, if i wanted to play a horde of skellies, id play tomb kings? There must surely be an option in the VC book somewhere for a vamp army with no skellies? Henchmen, i could understand, but hordes of skellies/zombies/ghouls? that just doesnt say "vampire" to me.

feel free to ignore me, btw - i dont even play WHFB. I used to (played skaven, using much the same tactics as has been outlined for the VC - tarpit em and raise more troops than they can kill each turn). But thats the thing - i chose skaven cos i wanted a horde army. It just bugs me that the most elite, aloof "species" in WHFB wins by hording their opponents to death. Are there any armies in WHFB that work well at small numbers? It seems to me that the new 8th ed rules have been a big push in favour of mobbing your opponent to death, tactics be damned. Build em big and charge em in, thatll do it...

[Primarch]

There must surely be an option in the VC book somewhere for a vamp army with no skellies? Henchmen, i could understand, but hordes of skellies/zombies/ghouls?

You have to spend 25% of your points on core troops. For a VC army that amounts to skeletons, ghouls or zombies. You then have 75% of your points to spend on the rest of your force with a maximum of 50% on character models. Characters (unless mounted on monsters) cannot win in a solo fight against a unit of troops. A character has to kill a model with every attack just to tie the combat whilst taking no hits in return. Even a bloodthirster has to be careful not to just throw itself at a huge mob of infantry.

Small, elite armies are generally Elves (Dark, wood or high) since they have a high basic cost. Ogres can be very small (model count wise). Brettonians are fairly small due to the majority of their force being expensive cavalry. Empire can probably manage it if they want to (very versatile).

It just bugs me that the most elite, aloof "species" in WHFB wins by hording their opponents to death.

The vampires are elite and aloof. Including the non-character vampire units in the book you usually dont see more than 10 on the table. However, a big shambling mob of zombies is par for the course with vampire counts, which are basically rock hard heroes with absolute dross for infantry.

To make a comparison, it's like me saying that I want to play horde Eldar. If the armybook/codex doesnt fit your vision of it, sorry, but the people who write the books disagreed with you on the theme. Cant be helped.

[Colonel Voss]

Prim puts up some good points. Transferring it over to 40k a bit, the vamps are more or less the expensive HQ choices. They can do wonderful things, but if pitted against the wrong unit, they're going to get squashed. Also as HQs, they need some troops. Since they are very few in numbers and being the elite blokes they are, why use your food source which may not like you should you feed on them before the battle? And of course they require pay and extra logistics what not. And don't forget if they are trained to fight, they may try to attack you (oddly enough, not everyone likes the pleasure of being lunch for a smelly old corpse). Talk about a burden, especially when there is such a wonderful cheap source of troops lying beneath the ground.

Each army has their own strengths and weaknesses that make them unique. The undead army has always been about shambling hordes of skeletons and zombies and the current vampire count army I think really brings out the feel of vampires far better than most of the hollywood crap produced nowadays. Of course if you want, you can create an elite vampire army, you'll just be playing at a big disadvantage as you go against the feel of the army.

[me_in_japan]

*shrug* i guess what it boils down to is: I like vampires, I just dont like Warhammer vampires.

Oh well, thats that, i spose...

*edit* actually, on second thoughts, and a re-read of Liber Necris, i like warhammer vampires too, fluff-wise. i just dont like vampire armies in the game of warhammer.

[jus]

hmm lords of the undead? more like lords of the tarpit, I think that's what GW paints vampires to be in fantasy battle, and I quite like the idea.

Went and had a chat with some vampire veterans today, here's a report of my findings. Yes the core troops are, as you say "absolute dross" but the key is not the quality. Rather the key is that their mastery of raising the dead as they crumble and therefore tarpitting a unit long enough for the elite and the aloof to come in for butchers work. e.g zombie dragon. vampire lord/vampires/graveguard/bloodknights. So having hordes of undead doesn't really give them a whole lot of character, RAISING hordes of undead at will...now that's class, wouldn't you agree?

your undead minions will serve you till their undying breathes, and if they get smashed, that's ok, just throw some dice and...raise raise raise and they are back. Every time one of my eldar dies to an ork, my inner child weeps, so I think I will find playing this army quite therapeutic.

The special troops on the other hand are quite the awesome sauce. Shambling skeletons though they may be. Primarch mentioned earlier that Grave guard are actually quite decent...and i'm inclined to agree. Although I maybe a bit biased since I like skeletons. Blood knights as well. There's my vampire coven right there. and mounted and in heavy armour as well. Is that enough character for the army? I think so.