Death Star units

[job]

So, does anybody have an idea for destroying there units. I've had trouble the last two games challenging them. I figure they are not invincible, and they haven't felt that way. Also there are ways to work around them.

The first was Voss' 10 Chaos Knights of Nurgle with 1+ armor and a ward save 4-5+ with an unber lord with ridiculous number of attacks. Today, I faced a ranked up Grave Guard unit with a VC and three Wight Kings.

So, I'm talking about what are the best tactics for taking on units that are either heavy on points, high number of models, stubborn or elite models, heavy armor, powerful attacks and usually full of characters, often offensive in nature.

I figure there is more then one way to attack them, but I'm looking for tactical ideas.

[me_in_japan]

I dont play fantasy, but my gut reaction to dealing with that kind of unit is "whatever theyre good at - dont do."

I guess for fantasy that means: do not engage them in H2H. Shoot the crap outta them. Wear em down. Dump a huge great cannonball on them from across the table. (The organ gun used to do a real number on my chaos knights, back in the day.) If all else fails, use purple sun of xerus on em, assuming it still exists

conversely, if there was a dead killy dead hard shooty unit (altho I cant think of one right now) I would charge its ass with a cheap monster that can fly. (i used to use a manticore for this, but I dont know how these weigh in points-wise these days.)

thats my (uneducated) 2 yen.

[Primarch]

To sum up M_i_J's advice,
Shoot the fighty stuff, Fight the shooty stuff.
Normally I would suggest magic-ing the heck out of them, but that really isnt an option for Job's dwarves, so instead, hit them with as many stone thrower and cannon shots as you can. Ignore everything else and just annihilate that unit. Make sure you use all your dispelling to stop it from being buffed. This is especially true when facing vampires.
You could also try building your own death star unit and if even that doesnt work, you can just ask your opponent to stop playing like an ass, because seriously if you aren't having fun then where is the sense in playing?

[job]

I did that today against Jus, but I learned why it is important to reduce down that unit and The Fear of VCs. I shot down everything, but a GG banner bearer, the VC and three Wight Kings, and they put the pain on my Qurrallers and Thunderers. I went through four rounds of combat producing only one wound on the characters.

Part of my question is, what can you do about the characters? Especially about the VC? that thing produces so many casualties that you can't bury it under ranks and banners either.

I think there is nothing quiet invincible in this game. Afterall, as the name suggests to all nerds, 'your putting all the Empire's eggs in one basket'. (And 40k has its share of bad smelling cheese.)

[Primarch]

Part of my question is, what can you do about the characters? Especially about the VC? that thing produces so many casualties that you can't bury it under ranks and banners either.

You didn't hit ANY with your cannons? If they are in the front rank you're going to be hitting one of those characters with every single shot, since cannons ignore the usual randomised hits rules and instead hit every model under their 'line.' He gets a "Look out Sir!" save IF he has 5 rank and file models left, so once the unit is small enough (ie 5 characters, 1 GG banner and 4 or less GG) he loses that. If you ever get an enfilading shot on the side of his unit as he gets closer you can probably wipe out half of the characters in one hit.
And if he is using Regeneration (as I suspect he might), you can give your cannons flaming attacks for next to nothing.

[Colonel Voss]

I covered that with you, the look out sir! rule and just to add to it, my lord would have had to make it on a higher role due to his size. Then again, as soon as it was time to charge I detached him and went after your cannon. perfect opportunity to shoot once they are seperate.

Another thing I have been thinking about since our fight, your quarellers didn't have enough of a survivability to handle the attacks dealt against them. We butchered you with no save throws possible and that reduced your number of attacks pretty badly. I'd look at something that gets you a bit more of an armor save (iron breakers come to mind) with a hero in there and the grudge stone (stubborn no flanks, hard to shift period) to hold up any melee monsters or the slayer trick.

Humorously, I hadn't intended my knights to be a death star. I knew you'd be taking a lot of artillery and just wanted a few of them to actually hit home. I had not counted on you having the most horrible luck possible.

[job]

Part of my question is, what can you do about the characters? Especially about the VC? that thing produces so many casualties that you can't bury it under ranks and banners either.

You didn't hit ANY with your cannons? If they are in the front rank you're going to be hitting one of those characters with every single shot, since cannons ignore the usual randomised hits rules and instead hit every model under their 'line.' He gets a "Look out Sir!" save IF he has 5 rank and file models left, so once the unit is small enough (ie 5 characters, 1 GG banner and 4 or less GG) he loses that. If you ever get an enfilading shot on the side of his unit as he gets closer you can probably wipe out half of the characters in one hit.
And if he is using Regeneration (as I suspect he might), you can give your cannons flaming attacks for next to nothing.

Oh, I was shooting at his Wights every turn, but he made all of his "look out, sir" saves. After all, they are 2+.

As for an enfilading shot, I got that on his Level 1 necromancer that was attached to a single rank of skeletons. He had no one behind him, but I was uncertain of the rule at the time. Does he still get a 2+ save if there is no one behind him, but the shot is enfilading?

[job]

I covered that with you, the look out sir! rule and just to add to it, my lord would have had to make it on a higher role due to his size. Then again, as soon as it was time to charge I detached him and went after your cannon. perfect opportunity to shoot once they are seperate.

Another thing I have been thinking about since our fight, your quarellers didn't have enough of a survivability to handle the attacks dealt against them. We butchered you with no save throws possible and that reduced your number of attacks pretty badly. I'd look at something that gets you a bit more of an armor save (iron breakers come to mind) with a hero in there and the grudge stone (stubborn no flanks, hard to shift period) to hold up any melee monsters or the slayer trick.

Humorously, I hadn't intended my knights to be a death star. I knew you'd be taking a lot of artillery and just wanted a few of them to actually hit home. I had not counted on you having the most horrible luck possible.

Dude, your knights alone were nearly 25% of the army. If you weren't intending them to be "Death Star" what were you intending them to be? With your lord they must be nearing half your points.

You might also remember I did try to plug a cannonball through your whole line, including your lord when you exposed their flank, but the shot managed to bounce right over your entire line without hitting anything.

Dragon slayer is not terrible with the extra strength, but check out the numbers on the rest of the slayers. S3 is not going to wound or penetrate your 1+ armor. And really, all you have to do is challenge the DS to neutralize him. He's unlikely to survive the initiative and attack advantages your lord has.

Also Iron Breakers and armor is not the trick to surviving. Gromil armor means only a difference between 5+ and 4+ in the current army book. While nobody seems to dismiss IB, I have hardly seen many voices praising them.
Additionally, I don't recall the flank thing being an issue against your army, Voss. Your knights ruined the party by bearing down from the front.

Instead, I've been seeing far more support for hammerers. They do look like a pretty good investment, only riding an extra two points above an equally armed dwarf warrior, but having the stubborn rule, +1 WS and +1 strength. That's -3 modifier to armor. Not bad.

[Admiral-Badruck]

I find that the best way to deal with a Death star unit is to have one or your own... or you could play for fun.. and not really get to deep in to the whole win and lose...

[job]

Fair points, sir.

But win or lose, war games are most fun when you have something to be able counter your opponents, right? Whether it be tactical maneuvers or some list building technique, I think any game is most fun when you have ways to attack and defend against each other.