An observation

[Primarch]

At the Orc-tober Fest event, I was asked numerous rules questions by various players. Each and every one of the questions was resolved by me simply picking up a rule book and reading the rule in question.
Now, personally, I dont like 8th ed very much due to all the random moves and what-have-you and I haven't even played it that much, but I think that the rules are very well written and thought through. At no stage did I need to check and FAQ or check online for the answers. That isnt to say that there isnt a need for them, just that none of the questions that came up yesterday needed them.

I have no problem answering questions or providing a ruling if I am running an event, sometimes it is good to have a third party around to avoid things getting too heated. At the same time, I wasnt actually needed to answer the questions that came up, they could have been dealt with very easily, if people had just read the rules themselves.

So, I recommend that players ensure that they have a copy of the rules in some form, take the time to read them, and even if you cant remember all of them (since even the best of us cant remember all the rules for all the games we play all the time), try to remember where in the book rules can be found when they are needed. After all, if I do manage to get a game in myself, I would like to be able to enjoy it in peace.

[me_in_japan]

I wasnt at the orcyfest, but if folks had to ask prim rules that are written in the rule book then for shame, y'all! OK, I've been known to ask for external adjudication at times, myself, but only (I hope) on fuzzy issues. Learning the rules is the first step to having a fun, friction-free game, no? Fundamental, I woulda thought.

Feel free to knock me off my high horse, if you fancy. I'm just a bit surprised.

[Spevna]

I wasnt at the orcyfest, but if folks had to ask prim rules that are written in the rule book then for shame, y'all! OK, I've been known to ask for external adjudication at times, myself, but only (I hope) on fuzzy issues. Learning the rules is the first step to having a fun, friction-free game, no? Fundamental, I woulda thought.

Feel free to knock me off my high horse, if you fancy. I'm just a bit surprised.

Quick translation - Don't be so f***ing lazy.

[The Other Dave]

I freely (if sheepishly) admit, my questions to Prim were indeed rooted in laziness. I mean, you could spend potentially a couple minutes looking through the book, or a couple seconds pestering somebody - that's an easy choice!

(Seriously, though, I'll try and be better in future.)

[The Underdweller]

I didn't play Warhammer but I'm sure I was just as bad at asking about Cutlass.
I'll also try to do better! (You just make too easy, though - it's so much faster to ask you, even after I've read the book!)

[ashmie]

This is something that comes up a lot and is one of the irritating factors I have given a lot of thought to when reflecting on if I have the patience to continue with the hobby later into my 30's. Please forgive my overlong answer.

Basically there needs to be a person at a tournament who can answer rules disputes because they will always be there. I remember one Nagoyahammer Prim didn't play and was just running around answering peoples questions.
The thing about "Why don't you read the rule book" is not so simple as it would seem. I mean who really has had a game of 40k or fantasy battle where you don't have to waste time looking things up or debating a rule. A tournament opponant in UK got really heated at me once as we had a different understanding of the codex marine rule 'And They Shall know No Fear'. Turned out we meant the same thing but were using different vocabulary to explain the rule and he had it confused with the Fearless rule. Needless to say the game was not a great deal of fun as it moved so fast, I was a new player and didn't have time to ask what was going on and he won. I've even had games with mates that start off really healthy and then just descend into mind numbing researching the rules sessions. That's all part of learning it admitedly.

In my experience the biggest problem about these over detailed rule sets is that people do read the rules (usually once in bits and bobs) and then the rules will be updated or a new edition will be released. I've been learning how to play fantasy for 20 years because the game designers can't stick to one set of rules. That goes for fantasy battle as well as Warhammer rpg and 40k.
The biggest thing about "Haven't you read the rules?" scenario, is yes, people have, but everyone has a different take on what those rules mean. I think half the fun (or annoyance sometimes) of wargaming is the rules are open to each individuals interpretation of what they mean. The golden rule is to find a situation where both players are satisfied with the ruling they are applying.

So that said, anyone for chess?
Maybe that's what Tsu games events will finally become.

[Primarch]

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a ref, or that he shouldn't be asked to adjudicate situations as and when they arise.
Case in point, during the third round of the tournament, two players began arguing about how to apply wounds caused through the Unstable special rule. One player wanted to assign the wounds however he wanted, the other wanted to assign wounds based on the fact that standard bearers are unkillable and outrank generals. (er....). Eventually I was called over to give a verdict on the situation.
All I did was pick up the rule book and read out the Unstable rule, which NEITHER player seemed to have read. The rule was clear, concise and left zero room for debate or argument. It took me 2 seconds to find it and 5 seconds more to read it. Instead they had been arguing for several minutes as well as trying to convince me of their stand point.
By all means, call a judge/ref/other player over if there is a legitimate difference of opinion about how to apply a rule, but first of all, actually read the rule. And dont just read the first sentence and then stop (as happened at least once over the weekend), read the whole section. If there is still some point of contention, or if the rules dont cover it, then of course you should ask someone.

[kojibear]

I, too, will try my best to make sure I have a better knowledge of the rules.

Maybe it is a good idea to keep a small 100 yen notebook and keep a record of the things that come up and the page number where the rule is found.

Also,

I was looking up many a rule on Saturday, too, and there was one rule or scenerios in which the book said something like - 'In such cases it is better to just assume something has failed, or let the players agree upon a suitable outcome, perhaps by rolling a D6' - or something like that.

There are rules that a clear cut and then there are rules that give a guideline - much like the Pirate Code used by Captain Balbossa. Sorry, I have cutlass on my mind

I am proud to say that I am slowly starting to come to grips with this. When I first came back to the hobby after my 16 odd year hiatus, I was always grabbing my hair and saying things like, 'No way!' 'Really?' etc... But slowly and surely, thanks to all the great people in our club, Prim, Jus, Job, ToD, The Admiral, Mike and everyone else, I have begun to get back into the flow of things.

For what my opinion is worth, and I'd like to think we value each members' thoughts equally, I think that we are all old enough, wise enough, and even getting grey enough (I have more white hairs than brown in my beard ) to let logic, common sense and the fun of the game guide us. I know that sounds wishy washy hairy fairy, but I think it has some sense too.

I'll do my best to make all my games with you guys fun and enjoyable ones! If I fail in my mission, you are free to give me a quick kick up the behind

[me_in_japan]

Maybe it is a good idea to keep a small 100 yen notebook and keep a record of the things that come up and the page number where the rule is found.

it occured to me that it might be a good idea to do the same, but then after the game anybody found to have asked a rules question that could have been solved by just simply reading the rulebook has to pay 100yen for each offense

I'll do my best to make all my games with you guys fun and enjoyable ones! If I fail in my mission, you are free to give me a quick kick up the behind

Can't ask for more than that.

[job]

This is something that comes up a lot and is one of the irritating factors I have given a lot of thought to when reflecting on if I have the patience to continue with the hobby later into my 30's. Please forgive my overlong answer.

Basically there needs to be a person at a tournament who can answer rules disputes because they will always be there. I remember one Nagoyahammer Prim didn't play and was just running around answering peoples questions.
The thing about "Why don't you read the rule book" is not so simple as it would seem. I mean who really has had a game of 40k or fantasy battle where you don't have to waste time looking things up or debating a rule. A tournament opponant in UK got really heated at me once as we had a different understanding of the codex marine rule 'And They Shall know No Fear'. Turned out we meant the same thing but were using different vocabulary to explain the rule and he had it confused with the Fearless rule. Needless to say the game was not a great deal of fun as it moved so fast, I was a new player and didn't have time to ask what was going on and he won. I've even had games with mates that start off really healthy and then just descend into mind numbing researching the rules sessions. That's all part of learning it admitedly.

In my experience the biggest problem about these over detailed rule sets is that people do read the rules (usually once in bits and bobs) and then the rules will be updated or a new edition will be released. I've been learning how to play fantasy for 20 years because the game designers can't stick to one set of rules. That goes for fantasy battle as well as Warhammer rpg and 40k.
The biggest thing about "Haven't you read the rules?" scenario, is yes, people have, but everyone has a different take on what those rules mean. I think half the fun (or annoyance sometimes) of wargaming is the rules are open to each individuals interpretation of what they mean. The golden rule is to find a situation where both players are satisfied with the ruling they are applying.

So that said, anyone for chess?
Maybe that's what Tsu games events will finally become.

Ashimie is a fountain of good wisdom. Aye men. I agree 100%

I, too, will try my best to make sure I have a better knowledge of the rules.

Maybe it is a good idea to keep a small 100 yen notebook and keep a record of the things that come up and the page number where the rule is found.

Also,

I was looking up many a rule on Saturday, too, and there was one rule or scenerios in which the book said something like - 'In such cases it is better to just assume something has failed, or let the players agree upon a suitable outcome, perhaps by rolling a D6' - or something like that.

There are rules that a clear cut and then there are rules that give a guideline - much like the Pirate Code used by Captain Balbossa. Sorry, I have cutlass on my mind

I am proud to say that I am slowly starting to come to grips with this. When I first came back to the hobby after my 16 odd year hiatus, I was always grabbing my hair and saying things like, 'No way!' 'Really?' etc... But slowly and surely, thanks to all the great people in our club, Prim, Jus, Job, ToD, The Admiral, Mike and everyone else, I have begun to get back into the flow of things.

For what my opinion is worth, and I'd like to think we value each members' thoughts equally, I think that we are all old enough, wise enough, and even getting grey enough (I have more white hairs than brown in my beard ) to let logic, common sense and the fun of the game guide us. I know that sounds wishy washy hairy fairy, but I think it has some sense too.

I'll do my best to make all my games with you guys fun and enjoyable ones! If I fail in my mission, you are free to give me a quick kick up the behind

I like your ideas and where your heart is, man. How about we can start a thread that keeps track of our rules issues and question, and then is edited to the agreed ruling dispute? Kind of like our Nagoyahammer errata?