Some flavor of Eldar coming next Sat.

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Dekana
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Re: Some flavor of Eldar coming next Sat.

Post by Dekana » Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:45 am

I think it's pretty bad. So many units got huge buffs (in an already powerful army) that it's hard to say "well don't just spam that one unit." More like, don't spam special weapons on bikes, or wraithknights, or wraithguard, or dire avengers, etc.

And there are the crazy good special rules: like the warp spider's move 2d6 when shot at and the shooter loses their attacks if that puts them out of range; or the immune to overwatch banshees; or the everything has full 6" battle focus formation...

The really bad combo, as Primarch pointed out, are the bikes (wrecks anything not AV13 from long range) with plentiful D weapons (wrecks vehicles... and everything else).
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Konrad
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Re: Some flavor of Eldar coming next Sat.

Post by Konrad » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:37 am

This made me laugh!
="Primarch"]Not speakng for Dekana here, but deep striking land raiders was pants-on-head levels of dumb.
This made me cry.
Vs. Boyz
40 shots, 27 hits, 23 wounds, 23 dead boyz.
.
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Mike the Pike
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Re: Some flavor of Eldar coming next Sat.

Post by Mike the Pike » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:01 am

A little context for y'all.
While jetbikes did get a big whack with the buff stick, they are still bloody expensive, have a huuuuge footprint and find it hard to hide. They can benefit from all sorts of Farseer/warlock shenanigans but so can a lot of ther units in the game. They can jink too but that too comes at a cost, 40x snapshots, which results in 6.66 hits if my math is correct. Not so great.

FYI For around the same price you can get...

2x 5 man Longfang Squads = 10x missile launchers (IIRC CAN hit 4x different units at once)

10x Dark Eldar bikes. Fewer special weapons but including a tooled up champ and other goodies.

2x 5 man Dark Eldar Warrior squads with a special weapons in Venoms

A decent sized IG platoon. Command squad + 2x 10 man squads w/special weapons + a heavy weapon squad + commissar

A tooled up, marked squad of Chaos Marines + power fist champion + tooled up rhino

6x mega nobz in a truck.

2x 10 Ork boyz mobs with a Nob in trukks

Hmmmm, some pretty useful/hurty/fighty/shooty units there. Still think 10 jet bikes with scatter lasers are outrageous and break the game? If so, please elaborate. I'm honestly curious.
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Primarch
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Re: Some flavor of Eldar coming next Sat.

Post by Primarch » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:28 am

Let's try the Long Fangs then.
Using Frag Vs. Boyz (assuming 3 hits per shot average)
10 shots, 30 hits, 15 wounds, 15 dead boyz.
Vs. Guardsmen
10 shots, 30 hits, 20 wounds, 20 dead guards.
Vs. Fire warriors
10 shots, 30 hits, 20 wounds, 10 dead fire warriors
Vs. Marines
10 shots, 30 hits, 15 wounds, 5 dead marines.
Using Krak Vs. Marines
10 shots, 7 hits, 6 wounds, 6 dead marines.
Vs Terminators
10 shots, 30 hits, 15 wounds, 3 dead terminators.
Vs. AV 10
10 shots, 7 hits, 6 hull points.
Vs. AV 11
10 shots, 7 hits, 4 hull points.
Vs. AV 12
10 shots, 7 hits, 3 hull points.
Vs. AV 13
10 shots, 7 hits 2 hull points.
Vs. AV 14
10 shots, 7 hits, 1 hull point.

Pros - Small footprint, can damage AV 13-14, Better S for wounding monsters etc. Longer range.
Cons - Can't move and fire at full BS. Take two heavy support slots. No jink option. No objective secured option.

Against nearly all targets, the bikes are better, though if the enemy has bunched up tight, the frags do get more effective AND they can engage heavier targets such as Monsterous Creatures and Tanks. The long fangs are less survivable as they can't evade enemy units as easily and are fairly static.

The bikes don't break the game, but they are a very good unit, especially if you consider that they fill a compulsory slot.
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Mike the Pike
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Re: Some flavor of Eldar coming next Sat.

Post by Mike the Pike » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:38 am

Of all the units above I thought that The Dorks had it best. They can get 2x scoring, shooty or fighty units + tough champions with power claws + assault vehicles to zoom them across the board. OR 6x Meganobz in a Trukk.
The Guard isn't bad either. They aren't as mobile but can put out a lot of firepower, are less likely to run away and can benefit from orders.
I my poor old purple perverts seem to have it the worst. They would struggle against all the other units. :(



Edit: I have a lot of time on my hands so also came up with these useful units for the same cost.

10x Necron Warriors in a Night Scythe

2x 10bug units of Genestealers.

2x 25bug units of Guants.

9x vanilla Tyranid Warriors.
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Primarch
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Re: Some flavor of Eldar coming next Sat.

Post by Primarch » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:48 am

In terms of raw firepower, I think that none of the above listed units can compete with the bikes. The IG can certainly bring bigger guns, but the bulk of their output is still from rapid firing lasrifles.
The other units all need to close with the enemy to make best use of their abilities, leaving them open to counter attack and they rely on flimsy transports to get them there. Meganobs are less scary if you can turboboost away.
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Mike the Pike
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Re: Some flavor of Eldar coming next Sat.

Post by Mike the Pike » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:56 am

I'm not saying that bikes aren't pretty damn good but they are far from being the game breaking unit that all the neck beards are making them out to be. :D

And as you well know, that footprint is a big negative. Templates just can't miss. Not to mention that without help they can and do get slaughtered by dedicated close combat units. Mumble, mumble, stoopid Raven Guard assault marines. :lol:
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Primarch
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Re: Some flavor of Eldar coming next Sat.

Post by Primarch » Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:11 pm

If that help is a rerollable 2+ save they don't need to worry though.

As I said way back at the top of the thread, I don't really consider them a massive issue. People will take bikes for the same reason they always did. They are a solid unit with good synergy with the Eldar psychic powers and can grab objectives late in the game.
The 10 scatter-bikes is statistically a great unit, but at that stage, you start to suffer from an Eggs in 1 Basket situation. Being able to remove 8 marines in one round of shooting means you are wasting the unit if the marine player is using combat squads. As has been said, they have a large footprint and jinking really hurts their output. Being troops, they can be used in small units as extra dakka, but I doubt even the Pikiest of us would build an army of them.
Good yes, game breaking, not really.

And they are still more sensible than deep-striking a land raider full of terminators onto a grot and getting a mishap. :D
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Re: Some flavor of Eldar coming next Sat.

Post by me_in_japan » Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:03 pm

bear in mind the whole scatterlaserjetbike issue is most likely an academic one, since all the eldar players round here have already built their jetbikes with narry a scatter laser in sight. Now, sure, we probably have oodles of scatter lasers lurking in the bits box, but are folks really going to hacksaw off the shuriken (cos those bad boys are moulded onto the undercarriage. No clip on guns in those days...) and attach a cobbled together scatter laser? I for one am not. It'll be shuriken catapults and the odd cannon as per the old days.

Granted, the 10man wraithguard squad backed up by a wraithlord, wraithseer and a full size squad of Vaul's Wrath will be a bit more of a headache but...*


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Re: Some flavor of Eldar coming next Sat.

Post by Spevna » Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:57 pm

Ok, the bikes are looking pretty nifty, and the new special abilities are quite nice too.
Pain in the arse? Yes. Game destroying? I don't think so.

Right, I've had a look at the codex, and I'm a bit confused. Do I have to include one of those three Guardian Hosts in my army, or is that only if I want to use the other nifty detachments? Can't I just make a regular FOC army anymore ?
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