Some flavor of Eldar coming next Sat.

[me_in_japan]

Um, until we all actually get some games in against the new codex, can the sky stop falling for just a wee minute? Proof is in the eating and all that.

Also, for what it's worth I agree with kbear - the new rules seem to have potential for a large variety of armies, and I reckon variety is a good thing.

[Primarch]

Um, until we all actually get some games in against the new codex, can the sky stop falling for just a wee minute? Proof is in the eating and all that.

Also, for what it's worth I agree with kbear - the new rules seem to have potential for a large variety of armies, and I reckon variety is a good thing.

Sky falling... sky falling... Nope, can't see any mention of that in the recent comments. I can see people saying that the changes listed so far are nearly all positive and that giving Titan grade weapons to infantry models seems overpowered. I don't see anyone throwing their minis out the window or refusing to play anymore. Just a discussion of how people feel about the changes being made. So maybe you Eldar players should stop acting like the victims of some global conspiracy and stand tall like the proud, power gaming cheese mongers you are!*


*I'm joking, obviously.

[Miguelsan]

That's the last straw! I'm ordering another eggdroid from Warzone for NH

Seriously now, I've been saying that Prim for sometime now. GW devs do not know their own rules, or at least how the rules interact between them and they don't take them to the logical conclusion. They give a rule to Eldar that by itself is not unbalanced but then forget or ignore that the synergy of said rule with another army like DE makes it incredibly powerful and that everybody is using allies in the current edition...

Facepalm.

M.

[Primarch]

No, I think GW do know their own rules. I think they know what is good and what is bad and how to make the bad things better. I would hazard a guess at Eldar being a pretty big seller after Marines and that this new codex is a big push to keep those sales up. I honestly think that GW doesn't really care about the game all that much. Maybe some of the developers do, but the company as a whole has been profit driven for a long time now. The fact that their senior accountant just became CEO says something about the way the company is run. As far as GWHQ goes, so long as minis continue to be sold in large quantities, the game itself is irrelevant. Mark Wells said as much when he said that GW was not a games company.
GW brings balance to 40K in the same way Anakin brings balance to the Force. By slaughtering children and murdering innocents.

While I wasn't particularly sold on the new AdMech designs, I had been feeling pretty upbeat about 40K recently. Lots of new stuff coming out with plenty of stuff for new players and old hands alike. Now though, the buff things to increase sales style has come creeping back. I get that they want to sell the new jetbikes and that a lot of Eldar players will already have enough, but a heavy weapon on every bike seems like a gratuitous pay-for-power sales technique by any standard.
Sigh...

[me_in_japan]

Gomen - I didn't mean to come across as critical. I appreciate that folks are just expressing (very valid) concerns about something which is open to serious abuse. If I ended up across the table from a wraith host id be unhappy about it, too.

Meh, at the end of the day we play for fun. We know an OP list when we see it, and if GWs game design leaves it to the players to police themselves then so be it. Just because a dirty combo/spam is possible doesn't mean I'll (or you'll) ever come up against it. Until we do I figure we can all just carry on as normal. Heck, in the entire duration of the previous codex I fired my serpent shields a grand total of zero times. Heck, I probly only played one or two games with eldar in that time. To be honest, that's a far bigger bone of contention for me - the rate of codex update. In the past two years or so GW have expected me, as a hypothetical keen eldar player, to buy:
6th eldar codex (now invalid)
Iyanden supplement (now invalid)
7th ed rulebook
7th ed Dark eldar codex
Haemunculi covens supplement
Harlequin codex (for units which, until very recently I could use in my regular eldar/dark eldar army)
7th ed Eldar codex

The harlequins in particular vex me. Having a harly codex is nice and all, but let's not forget they have been completely excised from the dark (and presumably crafty) eldar dexes. That's a looooot of eldar players out there who now have useless units of Harleys/shadow seer et al who now need to buy a new rulebook and multiple new units to use what used to be part of their basic army. It's a weird situation where illegal downloads keep the game playable...

[kojibear]

Just some thoughts.

With the exception of Craftworld Iyanden, wraith constructs in the fluff are not deployed unless absolutely necessary, i.e. in the case that the craftworld itself is under attack or come the apocalypse. I could understand the new versions of these models having the rules they do if they had been designed with this idea in mind. Obviously a points appropriate cost should have been applied.

I agree with Prim that the power creep of future codices is looking likely. I would like to add though that while the Eldar have units with the reliability to remove other army's units with ease, it comes at a price, or at least should. It is true to say that the Eldar in the current edition are not paying quite enough a price. But I don't think all of the Eldar units, such as the guradians and aspect warriors fall into this scenario (I have not seen any info regarding the cost of these only the abilities). When the book is in hand we will know I guess.

I agree with MiJ the rate of updates and releases is an issue of concern especially when they are done with the purpose of solely gaining profit and not for improving the gaming experience.

As I side note, I have been making an Eldar Exodite army very slowly over the past year. When this fluff fueled task is done I hope it will look beautiful and be fun to play with and against.

[Primarch]

Yep, GW are really churning those books out. It wouldn't be so bad if all books were created equally, but as I memtioned above, the Eldar book marks a radical change in direction with the codecies. Dark Eldar lost a lot of unique characters, as did the Nids and Grey Knights when they got their new books. The Necrons came out of the new edition with a loss in terms of interesting wargear, but a couple of benefits if you bought certain formations containing fixed units. Notice that the Necron jetbikes were sold out for ages after the dex got released as most players needed them to access the better formations. (Pay to win design philosophy at play). On the whole though, all of the recent books seemed balanced against each other and just within themselves.

When I go into a game against anyone, I want to at least have the illusion that I have a 50/50 shot at winning without needing to tailor my list specifically against their army and with BOTH of us taking the models we want to take because we like them. I'm sure we've all had games where our opponent puts down a unit so big, nasty and tough that we're left scratching our heads about how we are going to deal with it. Put down a couple of units like that and the game just stops being fun for at least one of the players involved if not both.
So, when a codex comes along with units that already fell into that category, that have gotten significantly better (Wraithknight>Gargantuan creature) with the new edition and yes, players are going to be put out by it. When opponents look across the table and feel that their only part in the game will be rolling a handful of saves, it's a bad set of rules. When players feel like pariahs because they want to use those units, it's a bad set of rules. Every unit should be a valid choice on the table without either player feeling like it shouldn't be there. Sure, there will always be the odd bad-match up, but if they are kept to a minimum and everyone can use their favourite minis, surely that should be a win for everyone.

As for points values, let's be honest here. The wraithguard shooting at AV14 went from an average of 1 hull point per 3 shots (they were S10 right?) fired to 2 hull points per shot fired. A six fold increase in their damage output. Even without a codex in hand, it's doubtful that their points cost will accurately reflect that, nor will it matter much to your opponent when your squad of 5 guys remove a full squadron of Leman Russ tanks in a single volley. GW has generally done a bad job of pointing up new units because Cheap+Awesome=More Sales.

"Well, yes, but it fits the fluff." I hear you say. That's no excuse for poor game balance. According to various pieces of fluff, all marines have targeting sensors and displays in their helmets, plus enhanced vision and hearing, yet don't have acute senses. Marines can survive the loss of a limb, massive doses of radiation or the destruction of one of their hearts, yet don't have any rules to reflect this. Nids are a galaxy-ending threat, yet unless you take a Nid-zilla list, have a hard time fighting their way out of a paper bag. Chaos Marines have been fighting for thousands of years and the only benefit they get over the loyalists is that they are more likely to run away. Fluff is what I want to read when I'm not playing, but using it to justify rules doesn't work. Otherwise the first player to deploy Uriel Ventris wins.

At the end of the day, I want to play this game with my friends and enjoy it. A poorly balanced codex is bad for everyone. I want to have fun playing against Eldar and for the Eldar players not to feel that they have to hold back or be declared WAAC power gamers and have fun playing too.

[kojibear]

When opponents look across the table and feel that their only part in the game will be rolling a handful of saves, it's a bad set of rules. When players feel like pariahs because they want to use those units, it's a bad set of rules. Every unit should be a valid choice on the table without either player feeling like it shouldn't be there. Sure, there will always be the odd bad-match up, but if they are kept to a minimum and everyone can use their favourite minis, surely that should be a win for everyone.


At the end of the day, I want to play this game with my friends and enjoy it. A poorly balanced codex is bad for everyone. I want to have fun playing against Eldar and for the Eldar players not to feel that they have to hold back or be declared WAAC power gamers and have fun playing too.

Nicely put Sir. Nicely put.

[Konrad]

Anyone remember Eldar in 2nd ed? They were unbeatable then too. Except back then it was pop-up attacks and a Swooping Hawk Exarch with a Vortex Grenade. I just accept that with that brief exception during (5th?) edition, when the Green Horde ruled, Eldar are going to get all the love and I count any game that does not end with the Boyz getting tabled as a success. Go down mocking their poncy pony tails and silly hats.
But yeah, this is not just Codex-creep, this is Codex-sprint! It really does look like a cash grab to me.
I just shrug, I expect to play 4 games of 40K this year. 1 at the next Joshin and 3 at Naghammer. By the time I get around to playing again, it will probably be 8th edition.

[Admiral-Badruck]

That's how I feel.