3rd game of Black Powder.

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Re: 3rd game of Black Powder.

Post by Primarch » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:44 pm

Lovejoy wrote:Hello all,

Here's update on what it looks like I'll be bringing-

1 Unit of Imperial Guard (count them as regular infantry if you like)
2 Units Line infantry (Fusiliers)
6 pounder cannon
Command stand

Oh, and I have the BP rulebook, so will bring my copy.

The guard unit and cannon look passable, but the others may look a bit ropey! Time-poor these days, and need devlan mud.
Each infantry unit consists of 6 stands of 4 men each, 40mm square bases (the victrix ones), I gathered that these 24 man units were what people were going for.
That should do nicely. By all means use the Guard as Guard.
24 man units are fine, Ash uses slightly larger ones and the game works fine.
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Re: 3rd game of Black Powder.

Post by job » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:23 pm

Huzzah! Vive L'Emperur! The Guard are present! :D 8-)
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Re: 3rd game of Black Powder.

Post by ashmie » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:30 am

Death to the ogre. Forward for Blucher. It's sounding good lads. Very excited now. Blood is up. :)
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Re: 3rd game of Black Powder.

Post by job » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:42 pm

Good game to All! :D It was a very well fought game. A very darn close run thing! I thought there were lots of memorable moments and lots of learning situations.

I want to give some credit to Col. Laycock for his savvy use of his jagers to capture the far (uh hm) "Dutch brothel" to blunt the French advance. It may have been the move to win the game. The bloody, stalwart fight the Prussian landwehr and elite line infantry certainly won the day even if it came at a cost. :)

Also thanks to Prim for putting up with all the questions from me and others. I certainly learned a lot. :) And Col. Dithering really lived up to his name, today didn't he? :D (Those were some painful command rolls you had with Dithering and the General.)

And, lastly, lots of thanks to my team mate, Lovejoy. Great work with preparing your models. Great work with fielding them today. I think your plan to drive the Prussians with one great concentrated attack might work on another day, but I guess that will have to await another chance. Ashmie was very right to say we had differing command styles. You certainly are a bit more of the "aggression, guts, and bayonet " school; a true French "Gen. Suvorov" in your own right. ;) Maybe I'm a bit more of the "fire and maneuver" school, if there is such a thing. Still, it made for an interesting game. Thanks! (And thanks for putting up with my persistent rule question asking. Sorry, next time I'll try to keep it to a minimum.)

I think in hindsight, the victory belongs to the Allies today. Certainly the center was very much in British / Allied hands, with three units within the fortified area.
Still, I thought the French did well in their own right. First, there was the streak of bad luck Lovejoy ran into early on that kind of limited his chances to maneuver and then assault. He took a lot of unfortunate casualties and it ended up really rattling his brigade and our position. Certainly in another game he might have escaped the worst with a little better luck.
Nevertheless, our joint army busted up a lot of Allied units. We lost two regiments, but drove off three Prussian and one British line units. I thought the French acquitted themselves well.
Maybe the biggest and most correctable tactical mistake was my own was not settling on a use for my Cuirassiers. It was my elite unit so to speak, but I made no use of them and they ended the game never really used and still completely untouched. (Partly to some luck.) Oh, there was also the mis-deployment of my skirmishers before our artillery that kept the guns out of action for two turns. :oops: (I learned not to count on passing a command 8 roll.)

Thanks and cheers again to everyone!
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Re: 3rd game of Black Powder.

Post by ashmie » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:09 am

It was a closely fought battle with a fair amount of dithering and blundering on both sides. A few setbacks with rule queries and looking things up but other than that an enjoyable game. Very fortunate to play such a big battle with Napoleonic. Thanks for taking the time to get the armies painted up and looking the business.
Some photos here but more later: http://s591.photobucket.com/albums/ss35 ... ve%202012/


I'd like to suggest if I may some general house rules next time we play if that's OK. To make the game run more smoothly perhaps we could settle any rule queries about terrain and special maneuvers before we begin play. That way we can either check a rule or create one beforehand to save time during game. Black Powder is pretty punchy with the basic rules so it's good to keep that pace I think. If a rule is uncertain, perhaps go for the simple coin toss and then look up the rule later after the game for next time.
Job your exciting maneuver of charging multiple units and forcing them in to squares is not technically in the rules but that doesn't mean we couldn't have made a rule for it (as a once special maneuver perhaps) before play. For instance. perhaps you would have to roll for an extra leadership maneuver to see if it's successful to realign the charge midway and should have sufficient command moves to achieve this.
Also what's to stop someone taking a whole army of skirmishers? Technically though if you did want to take an army of skirmishers it would have to be nicely balanced with another specialised army.
I think it's important Black Powder doesn't become a stats or a power strategy game. The idea for me is to enjoy the time period and think about what ifs and also get into the character of the thing. For example failed command roles are a lot more fun and bearable in character.

Unit of the battle had to be that French group of elite to the left of the house who took cannon fire, sniper fire up until the last turn.

Looking forward to the next game, whenever that may be. :)
Last edited by ashmie on Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3rd game of Black Powder.

Post by job » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:56 am

I agree on all accounts with you, Ashmie.
• I think as for rules, I should hold my musings back if it were to slow a team game. That aside Lovejoy was playing his first game (Congrats to him on that) and I was still playing my second, with muddled conceptions in mind. Even Prim had some things that were new (Skirmishers can form squares, etc.) and was consulting the book quiet often for special situations. I think with a few more games, things will really run smoothly. It seems once you get things down pat, a one-on-one game can be done within the space of an hour or so.

• As for the calvary, I'm not ardent on it. It was more musing than any real suggestion. It does seem calvary is quiet limited in BP (and rightfully so with its historic role), but that is coupled with our lack of space on our boards. (Compared to the Priestly's place.) I should say playing on a 6x6' space was really awesome, but the calvary yesterday, the hussars and cuirassiers, played no role in the game.
- another idle musing: Partly due to setup (the Hussars showed up late) and partly due to my fair incompetence (the cuirassiers have the distasteful honor of the unit that marched the most) calvary played no role. Well, discussing this with Prim, Prim made the point that calvary are meant to roam the back field if possible. This is all very possible for "Marauder" calvary which can get away from their commanders, but what about heavy calvary? What is their role on the field? While not impossible to imagine, it seems the BP rule set and our board space really limit the use of heavy calvary to just flank guards.

• Skirmishers are really good. Very flexible (they can from up as regular line infantry, too), great at shooting (+1 to hit and a re-roll), and difficult to hit. They are no more vulnerable to calvary than other regular infantry.
Of course they are weaker in combat. They can't charge unless it is other skirmishers or double-charging an engaged unit on its flank. Still, they are able evade a charge on a command role, so it is hard to bring them to combat. In addition, there is no flank or rear to a skirmish unit, so they can always form square as a response to calvary. (One more thing making them edge out line infantry.)
I was reading the Warlord forums, and there seem to be lot of players who think that skirmishers are a little too good.
A couple of players play with a house rule that skirmishers don't get the "make square rule". There are also a number of players who push for limited numbers of skirmishers and small units to keep them under control. I think both responses are valid.

- oh another idle musing and question: If you read the section on formations, it says any regular infantry can from into Skirmish Order. Later read the section on special rules and there is no "skirmish" rule. The book is very unclear whether skirmishers are another type of unit or whether they are a status for infantry. The book sometimes suggests line infantry can form into skirmishers (the formation rules) and other times (like in the Battle Reports) it suggests they are a separate type of unit, a kind of sub-category of infantry.


Oh, yes, overall let's just keep this gentlemanly. It was a fairly even game, although it was not meant to be or perfectly balanced. I felt sorry towards Lovejoy because his battalion was the smallenst between us and mine was the only half-painted force. :oops: I'll have to work on that.

And yes, the Old Guard lived up to their name and their bearskins. They took a heck of a pounding, but kept the French left guarded for longest time. Huzzah!
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Re: 3rd game of Black Powder.

Post by ashmie » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:35 am

Sounds fair. Perhaps we should play on a huge board someday. Your cavalry would benefit from this. I don't think we had any skirmishers forming squares yesterday did we?
Lets try not to get too bogged down in whats broken or what doesn't quite work well as a basic set of rules.
I would say in terms of Black Powder I would like to come away from the mistrust of rules comparisons and go for a hands on approach. I'm not saying make stuff up and expect your opponent to accept it but if there is a rule that's not clear, either make a rule adhoc that all parties can agree on or put it aside for debate at the end of the game. Sure, we are all new to the game so it was bound to last a few more hours than normal so that's no sweat. It's not a criticism of mine more of an observation. I've played lots of wargames where we waste time debating rules and what if I go here scenarios and we usually don't finish because time runs out or whatever.
All respect though to everyone yesterday it was a great game. Lets iron out the house rules or things we are unsure on as early as we can in the next one. Thanks for coming down to Tsu and making it happen. It looked fantastic. :D :D :D
Last edited by ashmie on Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3rd game of Black Powder.

Post by job » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:25 am

On all accounts I'm with you.

I might add some of the confusion and fuzziness is part of the fact we didn't have a game master. It seems to me that the rules are intentionally left vague in areas because there's intention they'll be crafted for very different scenarios and periods. An example in the FAQ tells the reader that in the case of infantry attacking a unit that just formed square in reaction to a calvary change, by the books the infantry get to have closing fire, but they suggest the game master give a penalty of some sort to the shooting. :idea:
It seems like Priestly and Co. intend for someone to adjudicate the rules and fill in those fuzzy areas for situations, not for the rule book to provide clear answers to situations.

House rules are cool. I'm fine with also playing it by the books, too. (Personally I'm a stickler for rules, but with BP I think the book has been written very loosely to encourage some dialogue about rules for games.) Whatever, fun and a "competitive" game (both players should have a good time sparring their units and wits!) I think are paramount. We'll speed things up next time.
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Re: 3rd game of Black Powder.

Post by Primarch » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:12 am

I have been trying to think of a diplomatic response to all this, but sadly I have been unable to find one.
Yesterday was the worst game of Black Powder I have played so far. I have absolutely no problem with rules questions like "What does Unit A do?" or "In what circumstances can I perform action Z?" That is fine. However "I dont think Unit A should be allowed to do that," and "I should be allowed to perform Action Z" aren't questions. They are at best points to debate, but when they fill up the length of the game, they come across as whinging and complaining.
I only have a limited amount of time to spend playing games every week and it is never as much as I would like to have. Spending my time arguing about things which dont really matter is not what I want to be doing. Gaming is something fun to do whilst I hang out with my friends. I just want to roll some dice as I chat about new additions to people's families, discuss books and movies, stare in awe at cool minis and awesome paint jobs and generally relax in good company. I certainly dont want to feel like I am arguing in a court of law.
Despite having played more games of BP than anyone, I am sure I made some mistakes in yesterdays game. I have been back over the rulebook on a couple of points today so I know there are a couple of things I did wrong. It's hard work to be teaching the rules to a new player, making sure that all the dice rolls tally up and remembering to move my own models without be constantly bickered with because a player disagrees with something because it is not how they imagine it should work.
Every rules question that came up yesterday and brought up in the posts above CAN be answered by looking at the rule book. This is true of the vast majority of cases in every game that is played. With Black Powder, more than any other game, I feel that things like "We should have a house rule to stop situation X" has completely missed the spirit in which the rules were written. Go back and read the rule book. Not just the rules, but the way they are presented and the message therein. Not just that, but look at how people locally actually play all the games we are involved in.
Sadly, this isn't the first time this situation has come up, but I sincerely hope that this will be the last. I dont care if people think they are justified in their actions. Either the constant complaining, niggling and whinging goes or I do. I dont care if I win or lose. I just want to play games where all concerned have a fun, relaxed time and go home feeling like they had a great day, and I am no longer going to waste my time playing games where that isn't the case.


Now that that venting is out of the way.

On Skirmishers and the rules thereof:
As a generic rule, all regular infantry can from Skirmish Order. (Page 14)
As a period specific rule, only infantry with the Skirmish Rule can use Skirmish as a formation EXCEPT to enter wooded terrain. (Page 126 amongst others)
All Napoleonic Infanty must form square (Page 126) and the Skirmish Rule does not prevent that.
Models in Skirmish order CANNOT give closing fire (Page 62), upon being charged they must either:
Close Ranks,
Evade, (assuming they are allowed to do so), which is covered as retiring from combat (Page 73)
Countercharge (assuming they are cavalry skirmishers),
Form Square (assuming infantry charged by cavalry),
Models in Skirmish Order entering a building are no longer in skirmish order and as such lose their benefits and penalties (Page 77) {this is one I messed up yesterday, sorry to Lovejoy who got the worst of it from the Jagers}

On Cavalry and what to do with them:
Cavalry who charge infantry from the front will find themselves facing a square 35 times out of 36, and being allowed to charge that square 1 time out of 36.
Cavalry who charge artillery from the front will be hit with a lot of closing fire and will probably not connect with the charge unless they have some good rolls.
Cavalry without the Marauders rule cannot operate far from their Brigade Commander. Looking over the battle reports in the book you will see that heavy cavalry is often formed into it's own brigade. In smaller games this is hard to do obviously. Generally, the cavalry should be there to support the infantry and stay close by them. Using them to lead the charge into the enemy line will probably not get you much beside a pile of dead cavalry.

On squares and what they do and dont do:
Squares are a formation for defending against enemy cavalry. Most of the time they will totally negate a cavalry charge from the front. If the cavalry do manage to charge in, they give a bonus to combat resolution against the cavalry.
They provide no bonus against infantry.
They provide no morale save bonus.
They can only move very slowly. One move at half speed, and only away from the enemy. As they can only make 1 move, getting out of square is all the unit can do in it's next turn. They may not leave the formation if enemy cavalry is within 12"
They reduce the unit's firepower and combat ability.
Artillery gets bonuses to hit them.
When forced to take a morale check, they are only affected by "Break" results on the chart.
Essentially, they are a last resort formation used when you need to keep a unit on the table or when charged by cavalry. They are a liability for a great many reasons.

On having a GM/Ref/Judge:
These are a great idea. If one is not available, but you are defaulting all of the rules questions to one player, accept what he says and just get on with things, it makes for a smoother and faster game.
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Re: 3rd game of Black Powder.

Post by ashmie » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:22 am

Re edit. I'm a bit concerned people didn't enjoy yesterdays game, it's a pity it had to be reviewed with gripes and squabble. I suggest we settle our differences and try and find a way to go forward for next time that suits everyone's style of play. I'm working on it. Thanks again for joining everyone. I enjoyed it on a player level if nothing more and was glad to go for beers after. :)

-edit- Photos round the right way now. http://s591.photobucket.com/albums/ss35 ... ve%202012/

I'll GM next time if you like. I'll prepare something special. No trains I promise. 8-)

Keeping BP in mind as a break from all that rule heavy system and tournament number crunching, of which we could all use a break from. Whilst at the same time pipes and dressing up in silly hats is good, aside I know from experience that many players are quite particular about getting the rules right while we are still learning them. With this in mind I will do my best to create a scenario that can be enjoyed on a light rule level in a leisurely fashion but with enough strategy to keep our military genius satisfied. Aiming to hopefully incorporate and respect the best of both gaming styles.

What say you gentle folks of NH? One more time with feeling. Those in agreement; huzzah, huzzah, huzzah! :cry: :arrow: :| :arrow: :) :arrow: :P
Last edited by ashmie on Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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