the factions

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me_in_japan
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Re: the factions

Post by me_in_japan » Mon May 28, 2012 9:35 am

*shrug* my rationale, if you can call it that, has always been "bugger the rules - buy the cool-looking shit"

I mean, case in point - I have scrap thralls. Nothing sucks more than a scrappy, but I still use em, cos they look cool :)

Meh, cygnar are kinda the ultrasmurfs of warmachine - masters of nothing (well, they shoot kinda good) but they don't really suck, either. Check out the cryx units armour if you want to see an obvious flaw in an army. Now compare that to cygnar...
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Re: the factions

Post by Colonel Voss » Mon May 28, 2012 10:01 am

Cygnar is one of those factions that require careful thought about activation order. Their strengths aren't as obvious as some factions (Khador and Cryx) but they are more adaptable than others (Ret and Circle come to mind). That's not to say that any faction is a push over, but some have a much higher learning curve.

I like how you want to go it alone, it will make things interesting and like MiJ, I am a huge fan of going for what looks cool. I do want to give one bit of caution. Each warcaster brings their own strengths and weaknesses, and requires different play styles. Some of these are very similar while others are radically different. This can mean that the list you build for caster X which works well is utter crap with caster Y. I've learned this the hard way with my casters as I have such disparate styles in each. I'm not sure if you are planning on going with just one or more than one at first, but it is something to keep in mind.
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Re: the factions

Post by Dungeon Lord » Mon May 28, 2012 11:04 am

I will be going with one caster at first to make just a small 15 point army and then add *clicks* that work well together because Cygnar seem to have a few units that give each other bonuses. Then I might get another warcaster that I like and work around him. Those *clicks* may or may not find their way into the new lists.

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Re: the factions

Post by Danguinius » Tue May 29, 2012 12:26 am

Well, as for learning the game, I think there is a definite progression. If you just decide Darius or Kraye look cool and then decide to start leaning the game with them, you will take a lot of a$$-beatings until you even begin to figure out those casters` basic strategies. I`ve been using Cygnar for over a year (and I play twice a month) and even I don`t have confidence with those two yet.

My advice (in the Starting with Cygnar thread) is not along the lines of "these models are mighty, so take them"...the advice is more like "these models will help you learn the game quickly and you will continue to use these models as your collection expands". I`m like MIJ in that if something looks cool, I buy it, paint it and TRY to make it work with the other models I have. Sometimes I`m successful, sometimes I`m not. Few things in this game are completely self-sufficient and even fewer work better without some synergy from other models. However, if you just randomly choose models to START your army with, you may not create a battle force with immediately recognizable combos and synergies...and this could really impede your learning curve of the game. Starting with a little group of models with definite and easily recognizeable synergies will help you learn the game - and learn Cygnar much faster.

One of my regular Menoth players regularly complains that Cygnar never misses. At first, I didn`t know what she meant. But when I thought about it, I realized that from her perspective (where Menoth models have low RAT and few ways to add bonuses/boosts and thus miss a lot with their ranged attacks) it`s unusual and "mysterious" how few times my models miss when I shoot something. But from my perspective, before I even pick up the dice to shoot, I`ve already moved a Ranger to within 5" of my target(s), compared my caster`s control area to the estimated distance between my target and the shooter - and decided not to move for an aiming bonus, and/or I`ve probably added the spell Deadeye. Thus, what probably looked like 6 or 7+ (on 2d6) to hit to a new player or a non-Cygnar player is now suddenly 3+...on 3d6 :twisted: . My subsequent damage roll may not be so successful, but it sure is nice knowing I will hit when I want to shoot something. These strategies/synergies (whatever you want to call them) might take longer to learn with a random collection of models.

Never the less, no matter what you end up getting, you will find some nice combos with your other models and discovering those is a whole other level of fun (that isn`t present in many other wargames). A new wargamer in our group has also decided on Cygnar and he already bought some models (before he started coming to our wargaming circle). Sunday, I tried a 15 point demo game vs. Cryx where he used my models and we ran through the rules step by step as we played. We used my models (cause I have probably a little more than half of the entire Cygnar range and he is still assembling and painting his stuff), but I made the list to mirror the models he already bought...so when he`ll have a leg up when he starts to play. So he played with pStryker, a Centurion, a Hunter and 6 Long Gunners. I added the Long Gunners since he hasn`t picked up any infantry yet, but otherwise it mirrored his more or less randomly chosen army. This is a list I would never think of, so I wan`t sure how it would go. But soon, he (and I) discovered that the spell Arcane Shield cast on the Centurion and during pStryker`s feat put that warjack`s armor at 29. It was just silly high/hard armor. The Centurion got charged by three Bane Thralls - which usually spells the end of a warjack - but the Centurion only got scratched for a grand total of four damage. And then proceeded to apply piston spear to Thrall face! Again, not a combo I knew about or would have thought about, but it happened even with randomly selected models (and me catching it).

Whatever you decide to go with, you can make it work...but you can make it work even faster with a quick read through some advice threads (not just mine).

Danguinius

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Re: the factions

Post by Colonel Voss » Tue May 29, 2012 3:28 am

Dan gives good advice. As someone who jumped into too many Khador casters, I'll add my own little advice.

First pick your caster. Like I said before, each faction has a different learning curve and each caster in the faction also has a learning curve. So once you've picked your caster, really get to know him or her. read over the rules and browse through all that your army has available keeping in mind what your caster can do. If certain units sing out to you either through fluff, rules or model looks, keep in mind how they would work with your caster. 15 pnts is a great start. Just realize that some units might be better at a higher level so I would suggest playing around with the units before you settle on the first 15 you buy.

Learning curve wise, do expect to get confused and stomped around at first. I got lucky and beat Prim the first two times with my Khador and helping a new player got her to win with the faction too. Then I got seriously stomped and really started learning. Play some games and ask people afterwards their thoughts. This game is detailed and there is a lot of depth to it that takes time to learn. I would also suggest playing against another member of your faction at some point early on. The ability to see anothers play style and different units in action is really helpful. Prim and I play completely different styles of the same faction and it shows each time we clash. Playing against him gives me new ideas and hopefully I give him new ideas as well.
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Re: the factions

Post by me_in_japan » Tue May 29, 2012 3:55 am

I still say "buy the cool shit", but would add the caveat "but be prepared to lose a lot at first". I figure that since you're gonna lose at first anyway, you may as well look good doing it :lol:

I agree, though, that sticking to one caster at first is a good idea. Also, BattleCollege(.com?) is a very good resource for the newbie player. They basically list every warmahordes unit in a big wiki, and describe their good and bad points without fear or favor. They don't recommend any one unit over another - they just say "this unit can do XYZ, but sucks at ABC". Its very helpful, I found.
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Re: the factions

Post by Dungeon Lord » Tue May 29, 2012 4:04 am

I certainly agree that starting out with a force that isn't very strong to begin with against people further along the learning curve will guarantee a a$$ whoppin'. Which will more than likely lead people to giving the game up. That is why it is better to learn along with other newbies and have get field Q and As.

I am not buying the starter set. I am sure it is balanced against other starer sets, but will probably get owned by other lists. Hopefully I can trust that I am not and beginner at gaming and although I am new to Warmachine I know what sucks and what has potential.

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Re: the factions

Post by Danguinius » Tue May 29, 2012 4:10 am

I also recommend the Battle College. They give many insights that are not in the Cygnar book. They do not list "exactly" what some effects are, nor can they reveal model stats, but the entries are still useful to browse through before planning purchases.

I forgot to say one thing in my overly long post above. If you come from a 40K or WFB background, you may be tempted to spam units/solos/jacks in WarMachine or Hordes. i.e. The Stormclad is generally considered Cygnar`s best warjack, so two Stormclads are better than one Stormclad. Spamming works in GW games, but not so much in WarMaHordes. It`s an especially bad strategy in Hordes, as each different warbeast in your list adds another spell (and even more options/combos) to you warlock`s arsenal. Despite how great the Earthborn Dire Troll is for Trollblood players, you`d really be hamstringing yourelf if you took three of them - even in a 50 point "big" game. Some units are spamable in WarMachine, but they are fairly rare. So, you may have some early success with the Ironclad, or the Arcane Tempest Gun Mages for example, and your first thought might be, "I`m gonna get me another one of those!!!"...but really you`d be better off NOT getting another one. Get something different instead.

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Re: the factions

Post by Dungeon Lord » Tue May 29, 2012 4:18 am

Actually, I found BattleCollege and had a read. I also did a general search to check that Cygnar aren't lossing 'cause of rules stacked against them. So I am not going in blind as I have the rule book and "codex" already.

As for looking cool. I shall be going for the coolness only offered to the guy stomping heads with well painted minis that also look good prestomping. I like tactics and thematic battles. I have done looks cool, gets stomped all the time. Didn't enjoy it much. don't get me wrong, in a thematic battle, I wouldn't care. But losing too much can get a little tiresome.

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Re: the factions

Post by Colonel Voss » Tue May 29, 2012 4:50 am

Going up against just new players isn't always needed. I have ret at 25 pnts and am starting circle (12 pnts so far) and have yet to play either. I'll be on the learning curve with them as well. So going against a player taking up a new faction or caster is also very much viable.
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