Warhammer Underworlds

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The Other Dave
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Re: Warhammer Underworlds

Post by The Other Dave » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:37 am

Hmm, idle speculation time - rumors suggest a pretty big price hike over Direchasm (John Rees is saying he heard 65 pounds to Direchasm's 50, and while he seems to have very quickly pivoted to "UW is going down the toilet, let's play Kill Team" over the past few months there's no reason to think it's wrong). Personally I'm prepared to accept that at least some of that may just be the cost of boardgames in the modern world, but thinking positively, it does suggest that the WH Community post saying Harrowdeep is the "biggest Underworlds release ever" may not just be ad copy.

It's hard to think of what they might put in there, though - more cards is about all that comes to mind. Maybe they're front-loading the universals releases with the grand alliance and Rivals cards?
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Miniatures painted in 2023: 252
Miniatures painted in 2024:
Epic scale: 9 vehicles, 56 stands of infantry, a whole buncha terrain
32mm-ish: 3 infantry

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me_in_japan
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Re: Warhammer Underworlds

Post by me_in_japan » Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:25 pm

While I’m swearing off underworlds for this season, I am still keeping up with the scuzzlebutt. I’m inclined to think that there won’t be much extra in this new box that sets it aside from the older ones. This kind of price hike is just GW being gw. If they can, they will, and their tried and tested approach to a decline in player numbers is to hike the price so the remaining players make up the shortfall. Plus, as you said, Dave, games cost more these days, and those shipping containers ain’t going to pay for themselves.

On the plus side, the minis are great and the game itself remains as fun as ever, so there’s no great disaster here, I guess. Presumably whatever new rules they introduce won’t completely bork the basics, so it should be fine.
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Wow. And then Corona happened. Just....crickets, all the way through to 2023...

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Re: Warhammer Underworlds

Post by The Other Dave » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:14 am

Oof nope, it's about 20 extra universals all told.

Eh, I'll still get it of course, and a bit of SNS negativity has zero impact on our local meta or what Japanese meta there is. :shrug: I suppose it really just makes the Starter Set that much more attractive as an entry point for new players.
Feel free to call me Dave!
-----
Miniatures painted in 2023: 252
Miniatures painted in 2024:
Epic scale: 9 vehicles, 56 stands of infantry, a whole buncha terrain
32mm-ish: 3 infantry

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me_in_japan
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Re: Warhammer Underworlds

Post by me_in_japan » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:32 am

Pfah! Fifteen quid for just 20 extra cards! What kind of damn fool would pay that?!?

*Surreptitiously nudges mtg cards out of sight*




😁
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Wow. And then Corona happened. Just....crickets, all the way through to 2023...

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Re: Warhammer Underworlds

Post by The Other Dave » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:56 pm

Some... interesting news:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/202 ... ht-future/

Namely, they're moving to a nearly Kill Team-ish release schedule with two core sets a year, each followed by two expansion warbands and some Rivals cards. My main issue with that is I really don't need that many boards or dice.

I was talking with John "Can You Roll a Crit" Rees with this on Twitter, and I'm really thinking they may be actively trying to pivot the game to a more casual, new-player-friendly place with a focus on pre-constructed Rivals decks for play (since the game is not in a good place competitively after COVID). It really does look like a "make or break" season, though - with the game apparently in trouble (we're kind of insulated from that here in Japan, where play seems to be overwhelmingly just the kind of "buy a warband you think is cool, what even is Championship" mindset they seem to be trying to court) they either need to pivot to a new business model or die, really.

Like, I'm seeing a lot of people on social media saying "that's it, I'm only going to get the warbands I like and play Rivals now," and I think that's probably exactly the point?
Feel free to call me Dave!
-----
Miniatures painted in 2023: 252
Miniatures painted in 2024:
Epic scale: 9 vehicles, 56 stands of infantry, a whole buncha terrain
32mm-ish: 3 infantry

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Re: Warhammer Underworlds

Post by Jye Nicolson » Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:53 pm

I for one welcome our new parrot overlords.

I'm honestly good with anything, I enjoyed Underworlds-as-a-subscription service but it did stand out as a bit of a proud nail among GW offerings. None of the other games have a "buy everything" model and they've kept this one up for a while now. A change does make sense, let's see if this is a good one.

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Re: Warhammer Underworlds

Post by The Other Dave » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:54 pm

Yeah, I mean, when it comes down to it, it's not going to affect our little meta at all - I actually think it's probably aspirational as a group that we have a couple people who buy everything and build decks more-or-less seriously, a larger group of people who buy what they think is cool and deck build but aren't necessarily aware that Championship even exists as a thing, and a few people who are Underworlds-curious and have a warband or two... And we always have a grand old time on games day, with little to no friction between our various levels of engagement with the game. The Online Underworlds Community generally seems to think that you either buy everything and play Championship only or GTFO, but that's really not sustainable, and (as we've seen) isn't very flexible in the face of a global pandemic shutting down FtF tournaments and disrupting the supply chain.
Feel free to call me Dave!
-----
Miniatures painted in 2023: 252
Miniatures painted in 2024:
Epic scale: 9 vehicles, 56 stands of infantry, a whole buncha terrain
32mm-ish: 3 infantry

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Re: Warhammer Underworlds

Post by me_in_japan » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:14 am

It’s really interesting to me how Underworlds is heading into this territory, and I also find the community’s reaction to it a fascinating wee insight into the relationship between gamers, the company that makes the games, and the games themselves.

As has been pointed out, GW seems to be pushing hard into a sales model designed to attract casual players. As with all things GW, this is clearly a decision made at a business management level, and (one would assume) is intended to maximise revenue. Without being privy to the financial details of Underworlds costs and benefits, I have no way of saying whether it’s a good idea or not, but let’s assume that the Bobs in the Ivory Tower know what they’re doing, and that it makes good business sense. However, when you take it apart, it seems counter intuitive from the point of view of what the gamers have so far expected from Underworlds.

Underworlds is pushed as “the ultimate competitive miniatures game”. That’s not a meaningless phrase. Certain types of gamers are attracted to competitive play. That kind of player wants a game that allows or even encourages cutthroat playstyles and minmaxing of resources. I’m not putting that kind of play down - as long as it’s done in the right environment it can be very stimulating, and to be completely honest that acceptance of competitive play in Underworlds, along with the complexity of the deck building / miniature gaming aspects was what attracted me to the game in the first place.

When GW start pushing the game to new players, it sends a message that they are no longer fully supportive of the competitive players. While I guess it’s possible to have an ongoing, complex game with a growing catalogue of playing pieces and still have it accessible to new players, I’m not quite sure how that can be achieved. Even the most well known and well established game of that type, MtG, struggles with a high barrier to entry due to complexity.

It’s interesting to note that this is not just my opinion - WotC have said many times they see this as a problem for Magic, but are unsure how to do anything about it, as they acknowledge that the complexity is a big part of the appeal to many players. They are, in effect, saying to established players “we know our game is hard and that’s why you like it. We’d like to attract more customers, but we won’t do so at your expense.”

GW, on the other hand, are sending the opposite message. They are letting the established players know that their wallets, having been milked dry, are no longer of interest to the company. I hope I’m not just allowing the doomsaying online to influence me in this thinking - looking at things from a purely personal perspective, I think the emphasis on Rivals as a format is antithetical to what attracted me to Underworlds (ie the complexity of deck building). The new card backs are a further indication that they have little interest in preserving playability or establishing any kind of secondary market. Finally, the release schedule speeding up like this to include more core sets (which personally I always saw as an inconvenience) reinforces the impression that new players are not only uppermost in the concerns, but that they’re their only concern.

This comes as not so much a surprise as a disappointment. This has been GWs way of doing things since forever, and it’s exactly the reason I didn’t buy in to kill team or any of their other games of recent years. Underworlds seemed different. They had great potential in Underworlds to have a genuinely balanced, competitive game, that could’ve grown indefinitely and been supported by an extremely loyal player base. All they had to do was acknowledge that group, and provide some kind of value to older warbands and cards. A secondary market would have been so healthy for the game. It’s not like there aren’t a gazillion other card games out there to use as models for a sustainable plan.

But anyway. We are where we are. I’ll confess I’m not as optimistic about UW as I was a month or so ago, or even a week ago. Back when I said I was taking this season off, I genuinely meant it - I was fully open to the possibility of coming back in a year or so. But the more I read about the coming year, the happier I am to not be a part of it.

It’s always possible that I’m wrong and that this season will have a buzzing tournament scene and tons of new play angles that leave the new players scratching their heads in confusion. If that happens I’ll be more than happy to eat my words and come back. Until then, I’ll be playing Malifaux for the minis and Magic for the competition.
current (2019) hobby interests
eh, y'know. Stuff, and things

Wow. And then Corona happened. Just....crickets, all the way through to 2023...

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The Other Dave
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Re: Warhammer Underworlds

Post by The Other Dave » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:50 am

See, I think "existing players are no longer of interest" is a hell of a strong reading of what we know of the situation. "Rivals exists and will be supported as a gateway into the game" is over here, and "therefore Championship and deck-building is going in the dumpster" is way over there, and there's a big old middle being excluded - especially since they seem to be being careful at every turn to assure us that Championship isn't going anywhere.

To me it's more like GW adding robust rules support for narrative play through Crusade in 40K and Path to Glory in AoS, while still putting as much emphasis on matched play as they always have. My reading of Rivals and such is "here is a way to use these cards to play the game without worrying about deckbuilding, and of course you can also use the cards to build competitive decks in Championship play."

Really, GW needs to push the game towards new players - the number one area of complaint I've heard about it since about Beastgrave is that it's just too intimidating / complex / expensive to pitch to new players, and if you can say "here is a fun* game mode that doesn't require you to buy any more than one warband with its cards," and then "if you like it here is another game mode you can pursue with a bit more depth that will need you to get more cards," that's a much better on-ramp than saying (as many of the Serious Underworlds Podcasts seem to) "well, to really play the game you just have to buy everything and that's just the way it is."

*This is the rub, of course - Rivals actually being balanced is going to be the big hurdle. But that's another can of.

(I also freely admit that deck building is not the number-one draw for me - I'm much more attracted to the turn-to-turn gameplay and decision-making side of the game personally.)
Feel free to call me Dave!
-----
Miniatures painted in 2023: 252
Miniatures painted in 2024:
Epic scale: 9 vehicles, 56 stands of infantry, a whole buncha terrain
32mm-ish: 3 infantry

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me_in_japan
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Re: Warhammer Underworlds

Post by me_in_japan » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:30 am

I think, on reflection, the issue may not be so much with the game direction itself as the way GW are marketing it. Mistaken or not, a fair proportion of the community seem to be concerned about the current direction. On the face of it, an easy entry point to the game is a universally good thing. The fact that so many players are turning away just now, however, suggests that the “it’s just a gateway mode” messaging is being lost.

*edit* even the fact I’m referring to it as “a new direction” is indicative of a problem. Another way to play doesn’t need to mean “a new direction” in any way shape or form. And yet somehow it’s coming across that way.
current (2019) hobby interests
eh, y'know. Stuff, and things

Wow. And then Corona happened. Just....crickets, all the way through to 2023...

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