Not wanting to flog a dead horse but....

[kojibear]

The Zulus had a lot of guns, though they were of a much lower quality than the British Martini-Henrys.

Hmm...Does that mean the Zulu's guns were older and thus could shoot effectively only at a short distance and with susceptibility to misfires, whereas the British guns had a longer range and less misfires?

[Primarch]

The Zulus had a lot of guns, though they were of a much lower quality than the British Martini-Henrys.

Hmm...Does that mean the Zulu's guns were older and thus could shoot effectively only at a short distance and with susceptibility to misfires, whereas the British guns had a longer range and less misfires?

Yes.
The Zulus also lacked formal training and were terrible shots. The British rifles were very powerful for their time being capable of going through three men at a time. The Martini-Henrys were of such a sturdy design that there have been examples found in use in places like Afghanistan up to the present day.

[ennui]

The more I think about it, the more the Zulus sound like Orks.

Whoa. Ok. I know you didn't mean it in a racist way, but I guess this whole Zulu thing kind of creeps me out.

...Carry on, I guess.

[Spevna]

The more I think about it, the more the Zulus sound like Orks.

Whoa. Ok. I know you didn't mean it in a racist way, but I guess this whole Zulu thing kind of creeps me out.

...Carry on, I guess.

I am pretty sure that the ork reference was in regards to the poor weapons and lack of training.

[me_in_japan]

The more I think about it, the more the Zulus sound like Orks.

Whoa. Ok. I know you didn't mean it in a racist way, but I guess this whole Zulu thing kind of creeps me out.

...Carry on, I guess.

*shrug*
its the nature of historical wargaming. In WW2 games, somebody's gotta be the nazis (and somebody's gotta plan the allies). In British Colonial games, somebody's gotta play the brits (and somebody's gotta play the zulus.) The simple fact is that 40k races were all based off of real life equivalents, and orks are clearly based on low-tech, strength in numbers, savage (from the pov of their opponents, perhaps "fierce" might be a more PC word) tribey type peoples. Would it be racist to imply that ancient celts were similar to wood elves? It's just a fantasy trope that came into being based on how real life peoples/cultures are perceived, so I think it's a fair comparison. You have to bear in mind that a lot of people like orks, so it's not necessarily a slur, any more than the celt/elf comparison (some people dont like elves much, come to think on it...)

[ashmie]

Cool.

We will watch Zulu and then maybe play this after! Epic!

[Primarch]

The more I think about it, the more the Zulus sound like Orks.

Whoa. Ok. I know you didn't mean it in a racist way, but I guess this whole Zulu thing kind of creeps me out.

...Carry on, I guess.

No, I didn't mean it in any racist sense, I was just explaining how they would work on the tabletop to all the (40k) players on the site.

[AndrewGPaul]

The simple fact is that 40k races were all based off of real life equivalents, and orks are clearly based on low-tech, strength in numbers, savage (from the pov of their opponents, perhaps "fierce" might be a more PC word) tribey type peoples.

To whit, Milwall football hooligans (with the fashion sense of the 3rd Reich).

No, really. That's why Orks all have cockney accents. Dwarves are beer-drinking Northern industrial types (with chainmail instead of flat caps) and Elves are effete winebar-frequenting Southern jessies.

OK, that's perhaps more 1st and 2nd edition Warhammer, but the influences bled over into early 40K too.

[ashmie]

@ Ennui : That's the danger with historical sometimes, forgetting that these were actual people who fought and died and not just a game of models. I'm sure old Prim didn't mean that comment about Zulu's being orcs to be racist although I agree it was a dodgy one. From a gaming angle on the tabletop they would play like an orc army I presume he meant.
That aside the whole Rorke's Drift event is a dodgy one. It's upheld as a British victory and portrayed as a gallant stand because the Brits were drastically outnumbered. That's why it would be an interesting battle to field. Having read the Osprey book on it I was quite sickened to read about the deadliness of the Martini Henry gun. At the end of the day there is nothing heroic about going to war against tribesmen with spears wielding a weapon of that strength. The Zulu's held up well against such a force.
If we are to play such an epic battle we should be careful and grant it the respect it deserves and keep it away from fantasy goblin comparisons.
Thanks for your post Ennui. Well met.

[ennui]

@ Ennui : That's the danger with historical sometimes, forgetting that these were actual people who fought and died and not just a game of models. I'm sure old Prim didn't mean that comment about Zulu's being orcs to be racist although I agree it was a dodgy one. From a gaming angle on the tabletop they would play like an orc army I presume he meant.
That aside the whole Rorke's Drift event is a dodgy one. It's upheld as a British victory and portrayed as a gallant stand because the Brits were drastically outnumbered. That's why it would be an interesting battle to field. Having read the Osprey book on it I was quite sickened to read about the deadliness of the Martini Henry gun. At the end of the day there is nothing heroic about going to war against tribesmen with spears wielding a weapon of that strength. The Zulu's held up well against such a force.
If we are to play such an epic battle we should be careful and grant it the respect it deserves and keep it away from fantasy goblin comparisons.
Thanks for your post Ennui. Well met.

Thanks, Ash. I wasn't trying to call anyone out or call "Racist!" or anything, I just saw something that was starting to weird me out, so I wanted to say something, is all. There was another recent series of posts in another forum that kind of exploded, and I guess I've got that in mind at the moment.

I don't know much about the battle of Rorke's Drift or that whole war in Africa; is it comparable maybe to the Alamo? It just seems weird to be like, "yeah, they were outnumbered by a bunch of filthy savages! (oh yeah but they had far superior weaponry. oh yeah and they were trying to take their land.)" But I think that's not a topic for this forum, so maybe I should reserve any further comment until I see that movie you guys are talking about.

Anyway, the scenario looks like it could be a lot of fun. I love unbalanced scenarios like that.