new FW achilles and its stupid, stupid rules...

[jus]

hmmmmm. Is this new land raider becoming official GW 40k, to be used in standard games of 40k? or will its use be restricted to games that include forge world models. I have to agree with the daves, its seems pretty broken.

[Admiral-Badruck]

I am sure it will not becoming to a game table near you for a at least a few years if ever in standard codex form... I know I will not be picking one up... if Spevna builds me one I will use it on MIJ but or any IG players that poke their heads up...

[me_in_japan]

It's a FW model, but its use is in no way restricted to apocalypse. FW models are not by any stretch limited to apocalypse. Sure, they do a lot of super heavies, but most everything else they do is regular 40k legal. So, this landy variant is regular 40k legal, yes.

Is there a clause anywhere in the Imperial Armour books that says the units contained within are not ok for use without your opponent's consent? I know various tourney organisers have rules regarding this, but what's the official line?

[Primarch]

Quoted from IA Apoc 1

"...Opponent's Consent:
In the past we have talked about getting your opponent's consent to use FW models. Of course, players dont like this approach because it gives the opponent sanction over their army. I agree with them and find the issue of consent difficult. Armies do not get to choose that their opponent will field against them, they just have to deal with it. The very idea that some vehicles are legal and other not seems odd to me. All the vehicles covered by FW exist in the 41st millenium and being a war torn universe, most find their way onto battlefields. Now background descriptions might restrict their availability, but players should not.

Also in game balance terms, rare and powerful equipment, monsters and characters are problematic. Players naturally want to use them, because A) they are cool models and B) the powerful rules mean they help win games. Of course, this means that these 'uber-killers' turn up far too often in games.

...To compensate, opponents have to skew their army to counter the uber-killer. The game becomes just about stopping it and this actually doesnt make for a very entertaining battle because the game balance has been so badly thrown out by it's presence. The use of uber-killers can be easily fixed by considering context. By this I mean the context withing which the game takes place. In stand-alone points-based games the uber-killers of the 41st millenium have no place in 40k in general. The solution is to play different styles of games, which wil allow players to get hours of gaming fun from their large models.

As far as we are concerned Codexes and the rulebook are 'official,' everything else is up to the players to use or ignore at will.... The only thing that matters is that both players know this before they start and both players agree that's the way they want to play the game."

[Primarch]

So basically, yes, opponent's consent is important.

[begin sarcasm]
If only Eldar hadsome kind of fast moving infantry unit that could get penetrating hits on one on a 5+, especially if it was standing still....
[/end sarcasm]

Seriously, the Necron Monolith has EXACTLY the same ability (except for the -1 to damage rolls) can wipe out several units of infantry at the same time, is 70 or so points cheaper, can deepstrike ONTO a unit and teleport units from across the table....Where is your rant about that eh?

You have lots of units which can get the job done, you're just deliberately ignoring their ability to do so. If you have to ignore a phase, why not ignore the shooting phase? If you forget about the Achilles ability to fire then it's a lot less scary.

[jus]

....and both players agree that's the way they want to play the game."

ah well, just so happens that you "don't agree" to play against a player fielding a forge world model with it's crust stuffed full of cheese. I was always of the opinion that if the model you wanted to field wasn't listed in your army's codex then you couldn't use it in your regular run of the mill 40k game. Wouldn't that make things alot simpler? not to mention fairer?

[Spevna]

....and both players agree that's the way they want to play the game."

ah well, just so happens that you "don't agree" to play against a player fielding a forge world model with it's crust stuffed full of cheese. I was always of the opinion that if the model you wanted to field wasn't listed in your army's codex then you couldn't use it in your regular run of the mill 40k game. Wouldn't that make things alot simpler? not to mention fairer?

That's not quite right mate. A lot of the Ork entries in the Imp Armour 8 book say "this unit may be taken as a troop/fast/elite/heavy choice for a Codex Ork army. The more exotic stuff like flyers and super heavies are another matter though.

[Admiral-Badruck]

If your opponent says no to a cheezy list then it must be one hell of a filthy list or he is just a baby. Prime took on of his most filthy lists of all time consisting of a Primarch Drop pods of doom and special rhinos... it was still a fun game even though he gave me a royal kicking...

[Admiral-Badruck]

@ Prime the monolith has not and will not be seen near as much as these will be... wait no one has one of these and truth be told I am not sure anyone will be getting one any time soon so again MIJ has started a rant that really has no point in our little group. Still it sure is fun to hear him do it...

Baby baby baby Oh baby baby baby no ....

Love that song man it is right up there with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHozn0YXAeE

[Primarch]

If your opponent says no to a cheezy list then it must be one hell of a filthy list or he is just a baby. Prime took on of his most filthy lists of all time consisting of a Primarch Drop pods of doom and special rhinos... it was still a fun game even though he gave me a royal kicking...

You knew full well it was coming and you said Ok. If I had turned up with that list and with no warning about what was in it, you may well have been a little put out.
Opponent's consent is important, and so is giving fair warning. IA also warns against the "Rabbits out of a hat" trick. ie. using super heavies, flyers etc without telling someone you will be doing so. In Apocalypse it is fine, but in a normal game your opponent has the right to say No. Of course, if you only have those models with you then they might be saying No to playing the game at all.