Units to accompany chapter master

[Seb]

Playing a lot of games today got me thinking of what sort of unit to accompany my chapter master.
They have to be good in close combat, so Assault terminators is a nice choice.. But I wanted something more power/artificier armourish..

I am thinking of playing my chapter master with the captain rules instead because then I get to field him with a command squad (which I don't get with the chapter master rules)
It is slightly annoying that a command squad get a lot of more options than the honour guard unit gets, the honour guard is a really expensive unit but doesn't have any wargear options granting invulnerable saves and is vastly outnumbered by the options of the command squad.
The command squad also has an apothecary that grants the feel no pain rule.

Let me hear your opinions please.

[Primarch]

The Honour Guard and the Command Squad do have different options, but dont dismiss the honour guard out of hand. The option to have a squad of guys with a 2+ save and relic blades running around is nothing to be sniffed at. Their lack of an invulnerable save is a downside, but anything that beats a 2+ save ignores feel no pain as well. Against boltguns, both a command squad and an honour guard squad have the same level of protection and the HG get saves against AP3 guns. (There aren't that many of them though).
6 bolter shots wound each squad.
The honour guard fail 1 save.
The command squad fail 2 saves. Feel No Pain then gives you an extra 4+ chance resulting in 1 failed save.

Basically the HG are a pure assault unit. The CS are more versatile but maybe dont hit as hard.

If neither of these squads suit you then you have several other choices. Sternguard offer a LOT of firepower and are still reasonable in assault. Assault marines without jump packs allow you to get a free rhino or drop pod. Vanguard will give you a very nasty assault unit.

[Seb]

Thanks,

The HG is a cool unit and really tempting to take, but the point cost with the inability to survive power weapons etc is scary. They work very good as hard hitters with their high iniative and a squad of 10 HG on the charge could dish out over 50 power weapon attacks easily and killing most things.. But facing a unit with higher initiative and power weapons could be fatal, I guess eldars have such units..

The vanguard veterans are also cool, but with storm shield and power weapon config heavily surpasses the cost of assault terminators.

decisions decisions...

*Edit

Using Hg wisely as a hard hitting unit with chapter banner (25 points) the cost of 5 models would be 210 points, not too expensive compared to Terminators actually regarding that they surpass them in numbers of attacks plus that they grant another attack to units around.
Charging with chapter master they would dish out 31(!!) power weapon attacks
No charge would be 25 attacks.

I can see that it might have its use if used right loaded in a landraider or something to protect it.

[Primarch]

Generally against Eldar etc you will get hit with high Initiative power weapon attacks, in which case, Storm Shields are going to be useful. There isnt a cheap way to get them unfortunately. Terminators aren't a bad choice, but your unit will usually be very small. Vanguard with storm shields are expensive (vanguard are expensive anyway) and so is a command squad. However, you dont need to give every model a storm shield. 2 or 3 in a unit should be enough.

Your biggest concern is getting your killer unit to the enemy lines unscathed, as a model with a storm shield has the same chance of dieing to a bolt gun as a model without a storm shield. Land Raiders are very tough, you can assault out of them and they can carry a lot of troops. They do cost a lot of points and draw a lot of fire though.

From experience, if you can, you should always take a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer in these types of squads. Nothing sucks more than having your super expensive, elite, assault unit get locked in combat with a model they cant hurt.

Other things to think about are:
Which slots have you already filled? If your elite choices are full of sternguard and dreadnoughts, you cant take terminators. Command Squads and Honour Guard dont take up any space on your force organisation charts.
What support can you give the unit? 1 Land Raider containing a small expensive squad with no back up will be killed very quickly.

[Seb]

From experience, if you can, you should always take a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer in these types of squads. Nothing sucks more than having your super expensive, elite, assault unit get locked in combat with a model they cant hurt.

With HG the best I can take is Relic blade and the Chapter Champion thunder hammer by sacrificing a lot of attacks..hmm

I am thinking:

Chapter master with 2 Honour Guard and Chapter Champion, Chapter banner and Relic Blade or Power Swords

and

5 Assault terminators with chaplain in terminator armour

in a Land Raider Crusader

[Primarch]

From experience, if you can, you should always take a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer in these types of squads. Nothing sucks more than having your super expensive, elite, assault unit get locked in combat with a model they cant hurt.

With HG the best I can take is Relic blade and the Chapter Champion thunder hammer by sacrificing a lot of attacks..hmm

I am thinking:
Chapter master with 2 Honour Guard and Chapter Champion, Chapter banner and Relic Blade or Power Swords
and
5 Assault terminators with chaplain in terminator armour
in a Land Raider Crusader

You may lose 1 attack per model, but being able to hit at S6 rather than S4 can make a huge difference.
Assuming you get the charge:
Vs Marines:
4 S4 power weapon attacks. 2 hits, 1 wound
3 S6 relic blade attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds
3 S8 thunder hammer attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds

Vs a T6 monstrous creature (e.g. most Tyranids)
4 S4 power weapon attacks, 2 hits, 0.3333 wounds
3 S6 relic blade attacks, 1.5 hits, 0.75 wounds
3 S8 thunder hammer attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds

Vs a Dreadnought (AV 12 on the front)
1 Grenade attack, 0.16 hits, 0.02 glancing hits
3 S6 relic blade attacks, 1.5 hits, 0.25 glancing hits
3 S8 thunder hammer attacks, 1.5 hits, 0.25 glancing hits, 0.5 penetrating hits

Plus relic blades cause instant death to any T3 characters and thunder hammers to any T4 characters.

[Admiral-Badruck]

Take what prime says with a grain of salt... He know his Marines well but there is more than one what to skin a cat.... fined a way to make it work for you if as for the rules... about the unit prime explains them well so listen... and if you want the rule lawyers to explain them post on Dakka Dakka and again take what they say with a grain of salt..

you can also give your guys meltaboms for 5 points each if you can roll a six with that meltabomb it take down a dread much better than anything else... just my take on it...

[Primarch]

you can also give your guys meltaboms for 5 points each if you can roll a six with that meltabomb it take down a dread much better than anything else... just my take on it...

Re: Meltabombs
Not every unit can take them (Terminators and Honour Guard for example), but they can be useful.
Meltabombs vs dreads
1 meltabomb attack, 0.16 hits, 0.013 glancing hits, 0.14 penetrating hits.
So you need 3.5 meltabombs to do the job of one powerfist/thunder hammer (assuming a model with 2 attacks and the charge). They also have zero effect on monstrous creatures, so I generally only buy them if I have 5 points left at the end of making my list.
Meltabombs are far superior than fists/hammers against slow moving vehicles without a WS though. Land Raiders can generally ignore infantry assaults unless you're using meltabombs.

@Badruck - Which units would you use with a marine captain/chapter master on foot?
@Seb - I rarely run my marine hqs on foot and when I do, I put them with sternguard (Pedro Kantor for example), so a lot of my opinion is based on maths and what I expect rather than experience. Usually I deepstrike my HQ in a pod, use a jump pack or ride a bike. If I want to assault with a foot HQ, I use a Land Raider.

[Primarch]

I am thinking:
Chapter master with 2 Honour Guard and Chapter Champion, Chapter banner and Relic Blade or Power Swords
and
5 Assault terminators with chaplain in terminator armour in a Land Raider Crusader

A chaplain and assault terminators in a land raider are a very hard hitting unit and you're probably better off putting the chapter master in with them and then adding some more terminators.

Just to clarify (because its not clear from your post what you intend), you cant put the honour guard into the land raider if you also put terminators into the land raider. A transport can only hold 1 unit at a time (along with any Independant Characters).

[Seb]

I am thinking:
Chapter master with 2 Honour Guard and Chapter Champion, Chapter banner and Relic Blade or Power Swords
and
5 Assault terminators with chaplain in terminator armour in a Land Raider Crusader

A chaplain and assault terminators in a land raider are a very hard hitting unit and you're probably better off putting the chapter master in with them and then adding some more terminators.

Just to clarify (because its not clear from your post what you intend), you cant put the honour guard into the land raider if you also put terminators into the land raider. A transport can only hold 1 unit at a time (along with any Independant Characters).

Oh I see, only one unit goes into one transport eh, thanks for that info.

Can I add several independant characters to the same unit? Like the chaplain and chapter master to one unit of terminators?